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New Four Flags Issue - Feb 22  
 

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Bedrock Of The Community
United States
12120 Posts
Posted 02/13/2013   10:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wt1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And to complicate things even further, the booklets from AVR and SSP have been reprinted, so if you're collecting plate numbers there are P1111 and P2222 (APU) and S11111 and S22222 (SSP) varieties out there, too. I've only obtained the (SSP) variety plate number so far:

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Valued Member
125 Posts
Posted 02/13/2013   8:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MrEos to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I used the caliper, which makes it fairly easy to distinguish the different sized flags. I set it to 19mm... stamps under that went to one pile, over that to another, right on to a third. Much easier than using a ruler and magnifying glass.

wt1 - or anyone else following along - are the ATM variety (4706-09) identical to the other APU variety (4641-44) with the exception of thinner paper? Same small microprinting? Same 18.5mm flag with colored dots? If so, the only way to distinguish once used will be to remove from envelope, right?

I did pretty well with my small pile of about 100 stamps. Got all the coil versions (including 2 different PNC's) and 9 of the 16 booklet varieties (and might have some ATMs still on paper, but can't say with certainty).

Please tell me that the reprinted booklets will not be a new Scott number.
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Bedrock Of The Community
United States
12120 Posts
Posted 02/13/2013   9:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wt1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First, the reprinted booklets will probably not be a new Scott number. If past history is any indicator, the Scott catalog typically identifies the different plate numbers used under the same Scott number.

The ATM variety (4706-09) is 18.5mm measuring the LL to the LR of the flag.

Once again, here's the summary of all the known Scott numbers and dimensional information for the Four Flag Booklets:




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Edited by wt1 - 02/13/2013 9:43 pm
Valued Member
125 Posts
Posted 02/13/2013   9:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MrEos to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, wt1. Looks like I either find stamps with die cuts on all four sides, or need to remove from envelopes to check for thin paper in order to distinguish the ATM version. Interesting that your chart says all 4 of the ATM stamps can be die cut on all four sides. I would have assumed that they'd all be like the example you showed with just the Justice and Liberty stamps in the 4-cut positions. Guess that makes another variety for the specialists collecting full booklets.
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Edited by MrEos - 02/13/2013 9:56 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
819 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   2:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Trainwreck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I put together a cheat sheet to help assign Scott numbers to the various Four Flags booklet stamps. The main reason was to see if Scott nos. can be assigned based solely on the straight edge configuration (side and number), and avoid trying to determine if an on-paper stamp is the thin paper ATM variety (Scott 4706-4709). Unfortunately, that goal was not entirely successful. However, here is what I did discover.

At a minimum, you need the following to properly assign a Scott no. to MOST Four Flags booklet stamps:
1. Design (Freedom, Liberty, Equality, Justice)
2. Number and sides of stamp with straight edges
3. Flag width as measured from LL to LR corners of flag
4. In no cases do you need to determine color of the dots in the stars (which can be a pain), except as a confirmation

The exception is that some of the Ashton-Potter (P) printed stamps require determination of paper thickness to properly assign the Scott number. On mint and off-paper stamps, this is easy because the stamps are so thin and translucent. On-paper stamps will require comparison to other on-paper stamps confirmed to be printed on paper with normal thickness. It helps if the stamp is affixed over some printing on the envelope (e.g., "Place Stamp Here") to evaluate translucency.

I don't own a device to measure paper thickness, so I won't comment on that method.

I made an assumption that the ATM pane is only available in the configuration displayed a few entries above this one.

Below is the cheat sheet I created. I have a pdf version available upon request. Send PM if interested.

Regards, Robert


P.S. L=left, R=right, T=top, B=bottom
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Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   3:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dirtydan223 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Today I picked up the SSP S22222 booklet at the PO desk at the MICHIPEX show.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
521 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Zuzu to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Trainwreck, I think that is going to come in very handy, thank you!
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Valued Member
United States
397 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   9:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Crouse27 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have not been able to locate any of the ATM version. Seems the ATM machines are being converted to the print stamps as needed rather than being loaded with ATM sheets. I wonder if these will be like the snowflakes of a few years ago and end up scarce. Anyone have any ideas? Also Trainwreck thanks for posting the cheat sheet.
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Valued Member
United States
161 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   9:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jeffyl00b to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Seems the ATM machines are being converted to the print stamps as needed rather than being loaded with ATM sheets.


Oh no way! Last X-mas, or "the holidays", I went to my local PO to drop of some boxes(with an amazing number of stamps of course) and I saw a girl with a LARGE stack of greeting cards, and putting those printed kiosk stamps on them all instead of the wonderful christmas stamps or anything else on each. It still bothers me and I didn't get one from her.

The moral of the story, if I start getting envelopes with bar codes and aren't a real stamp, you may as well just only send me pre-sorts!

But I'm old fashioned for my age. I think a proper letter is a proper letter, sealed and stamped and addressed. I'm sorry for another typical outburst. :)
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Edited by jeffyl00b - 03/02/2013 9:59 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
United States
12120 Posts
Posted 03/02/2013   10:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wt1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have not been able to locate any of the ATM version.


I have never seen, been offered, or purchased any ATM booklet from an ATM machine. I have to buy mine from SFS in order to include them in my collection (I posted an example on page 3 of this thread).

To briefly change the subject away from Four Flag Booklets and back to Four Flags Coils, I have now heard that we have PNC's with 2's on them now (presumably a reprint) making for even more varieties to collect!
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
819 Posts
Posted 03/09/2013   10:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Trainwreck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I obtained a reprinted Ashton-Potter booklet of 20 with plate no. P2222 (Scott 4644b). This booklet has solid tagging whereas the P1111 booklet has overall tagging. Based on past history, this difference qualifies for listing in Scott as a minor variety. I can't speak for any tagging differences in the reprinted Sennett booklet (S2222).

Below is an image I took of the two booklet panes under short wave UV light. The upper pane is P1111 (overall tagging); the lower P2222 (solid tagging). I apologize for the awful photography--it was my first time.

The most obvious difference is the interrupted tagging on P1111. The taggant is not applied over the strips where the booklet is intended to be folded. Also, not evident in this photo, the label on P1111 is not tagged, while it is tagged on P2222.

The flag is darker on P2222 because the ink is applied over the taggant (it's embedded in the paper). On P1111, the taggant is applied over the ink, giving it that all-over green tint.

This issue is shaping up to be a nice challenge to collect all the varieties.

Cheers, Robert
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Valued Member
125 Posts
Posted 12/19/2013   09:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MrEos to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Trainwreck - thanks for putting together that cheat sheet. I just went through 200-300 Flags (on paper) searching for the ATM varieties - which is a real challenge when they're still on paper. Your straight edge analysis helped eliminate around half my pile. I was able to eliminate another 1/3 based on flag width (measuring with caliper from the garage). That left me with around 75-100 that were "possibles." From those, I selected about a dozen that looked "different." Only two, though, were the thin paper ATM. Thin paper is fairly obvious once removed from the envelope. Even so, your chart does help narrow things down.
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Edited by MrEos - 12/19/2013 09:29 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
819 Posts
Posted 12/19/2013   1:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Trainwreck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm glad you found it useful.

Thanks, Robert
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
557 Posts
Posted 01/23/2014   06:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add oldtriguy1960 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Everyone,

Trainwreck has already determined that the Ashton-Potter bklt of 20 reprint has a tagging difference compared to the first printing. How about the Sennet bklt reprint? Any difference with tagging there?
Does anyone know if they have received new Scott #s?

Thanks,

Dave N.
<><
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
819 Posts
Posted 01/23/2014   08:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Trainwreck to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have both Sennett booklets (S11111 & S22222) listed as Scott 4648b. Both booklets have solid tagging, so Scott did not assign a new number.

Robert
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