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Is This A R14 Or R15 Bisect? If So, For What Purpose?

 
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Posted 08/18/2014   11:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add wbrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
attached scan of half a 2c tied to what may have been a piece of packaging paper for a product. Cancelled by "MORGAN & ..." and "successors to..."
LR corner below the 2 appears to be a fragment of a "Y" or "V."
Any ideas?
thanks
Bill

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Posted 08/18/2014   4:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Although not authorized, bisects were often used when there were no stamps of a needed value available. Without having the complete document it is tough to say why this was done. There were very few one cent rates, and they were all proprietary items for items costing less then .25 cents.
The letter at the bottom appears to be a v, making this an R15 which makes the document fragment post October 1864. If it is a Y, than it would be an R14.
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Posted 08/18/2014   6:58 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Neat item!
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Posted 09/09/2014   8:06 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well that went higher than I was hoping...
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Posted 09/09/2014   8:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What did it go for? I was not all that impressed, truthfully. It's dirty, and there is no way to know why it was used.
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Posted 09/10/2014   11:40 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
$145. I was hoping for a steal but ended up paying for it. As far as the condition, (1) I could be wrong but I think some of that is due to the scan in question, and (2) aren't most proprietary on-product uses dirty/tattered, etc.? That's pretty much par for the course.

Of course greater context/larger fragment certainly would help.

I don't think it is manufactured as the cancel crosses the entire stamp and there are no voids where the other half of the stamp could have been removed. There is some difference in density and structure of the cancel on the paper vs. the stamp, but we see that all the time with covers... unless the entire thing is fake, but why would you? There's not THAT much upside for the effort involved as the collecting market for these is very narrow.

I'll scrutinize it more closely when it arrives and reimage it.

It fell into the "when will I see another one?" category. Either pay what it takes or risk not seeing it again. Quite a few of the more esoteric segments of my collection require that mindset in order to progress now... like that Brady's Bend cancel you pointed out to me. I won it at about 3x Scott, but again, the likelihood of ones coming around on denominations I still need gets slimmer and slimmer, as they are not common cancels to begin with. To date I've only found one additional duplicate. In this case, the stamp itself is superbly centered as well, which lessens the blow a bit.

As time goes on I find myself having far fewer regrets about having "overpayed" for rare or unusual items than I do about those items that I didn't step up and pay the premium for. There are any number of items that, in retrospect, I really should have stretched a bit further to acquire, that I may never see again.

Sometimes it's hard to let go of that "percentage of Scott" mentality that gets drummed into us. I still beat myself up over missed opportunities because I mentally got stuck on the percentage of catalog value that was bing asked.
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Edited by revenuecollector - 09/10/2014 11:47 pm
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Posted 09/10/2014   11:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We will have to see what kind of paper it is on; it might not be a proprietary usage. It's fine if you wanted it, it just does nothing for me.
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Posted 09/11/2014   12:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wbrob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Decades ago I learned, through some both pleasant and also painful experiences, that collecting rather scarce material must be (for me at least) based on two questions:
"What is the most I can lose on the purchase" and "When will I ever see it again?"
So I second Dan's comments on that.
Full disclosure: I did sell it recently and yes, it is rather grubby looking and, in my mind and maybe for that reason, looks like a genuine use. It is returnable for any reason at all. The next step would be to research "Morgan and..."; I tried but gave up after a short search.
Bill
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Posted 09/11/2014   1:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The issue for me is not legitimacy so much, it is more that there is no way to know what it was used for, or what the actual rate was, or when and where it was used. It's essentially just like a cut square.
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Posted 09/11/2014   5:44 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's the beauty of the different ways people collect. What causes attraction to one collector can cause ambivalence or even repulsion to another (see our discussion on the color changelings of the violet inks of the 1st issue). In collecting more than just about any other pursuit, beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm an aesthetic collector rather than a scholarly one. I have no interest in getting mired in the intricacies of the usages, the significance of the rates, etc. I'll leave that to Mike Mahler, Tim Wait, and others.

While I certainly would love to know the story behind the item, the lack of it isn't a showstopper for me or a barrier to acquisition.

A bisect with anything other than a manuscript cancel is VERY scarce in my opinion. Looking through my bisect census page, there is only ONE shown there that has a handstamp cancel (excluding cut cancels). That aspect alone makes it worthwhile to me, especially being a cancel specialist.

Also, you never know what the future holds. What's to say another example of either the cancel or a similar bisect on a more complete product or document might not appear down the line that might ultimately attribute this piece? Personally, I hesitate to pass on the unusual just because we don't know what it is RIGHT NOW. Passing it up only to find out after the fact what it definitively is would just irritate me to no end.
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Edited by revenuecollector - 09/11/2014 5:48 pm
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Posted 09/11/2014   5:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The problem is that without knowing the Why, Where, and When, there is no provable bisect. Someone of questionable honesty could have created that 80 or 100 or more years ago and we would have absolutely no way of knowing unless that unknown "future item" shows up. Which as you know is a low percentage gamble. At best at this time with what we currently know, it is a "no opinion" item. Exactly 50/50.
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Posted 09/13/2014   12:24 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The piece arrived today. Here is a higher resolution scan of both the front and the back. Below the picture is a link to a 1600dpi scan.

It most definitely is an R15. You can see part of an E as well as the V and a period. The paper appears to be some sort of packing paper. The vertical line in the paper that the stamp crosses is a foldover seam of two separate pieces of paper.

The only reference I could find of a U.S.-based "Morgan &" with "Successors to" in the correct era doing a rudimentary Google search is the firm of Morgan & Hanrahan, successors to Fine & Morgan, but that appears to have been a law firm, which would not have had reason for a proprietary use.

There are some references to a London firm, Morgan & Laing, successors to William Thomas Morgan (photographer).

All the other references I could find were ither to companies outside of the era in question, or had a name or initials before "Morgan".

Any ideas?



http://www.revenue-collector.com/bi...r15f_big.jpg
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Posted 09/13/2014   08:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stamps paying the photographers tax were required to be put directly on the back of the photograph, and there was no one cent rate. However there was a one cent tax on preserved foods (canned goods). Some products such as canned meats, fruits and shellfish were soon exempted, but many others such as sauces, jams, jellies, and mustard were taxed for several years.
Obviously this could have been part of a larger rate, but usually the stamps would all be in one location. However this does not have to have been true, especially if someone realized that an incorrect tax was being paid and this stamp was the correction. That is part of the problem with such a small cutout, there is so much information missing.
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Edited by revcollector - 09/13/2014 08:15 am
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Posted 09/13/2014   08:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The #3814 on the back is the old Scott number from before they were changed back in the later 40's.
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Posted 09/13/2014   1:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rustyc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
revenuecollector, there is a relatively new listing (Sept. 9) at the APS Stamp Store of an R92c with a circular handstamp that appears to read "E.D. Morgan & Co. N.Y." It is dated May 9, 1865. Google then leads to Edward D. Morgan, who started the company as an import house in 1843. (I would post links but learned I am not supposed to do that until I have 50 posts.)

I don't know if this is helpful information or not, but I thought I would pass it along.
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Posted 09/13/2014   3:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I_Love_Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What an interesting item and discussion thereof. Thanks.
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