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Scott # 372 Sheet (1909 Huron)

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Posted 12/08/2016   12:08 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Posted 12/08/2016   12:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kcaramat to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Non Profit.

Not sure of the implications, I guess that means they would just have to find ways to spend more money. Hospitals, some insurance groups, schools ect. seem to be able to take in boatloads of money and find ways to stay non profit

Vetted by APS members.

Similar to what takes place on Stamp Smarter but with more teeth. I know that I have challenged items at the APS stamp store and they have been taken down quickly. I believe APS offers a Quick ID service, perhaps it could be automated to some extent. We all know what goes on at Ebay. If we are to grow this hobby we need a site with integrity.

I would envision an auction site where any purchase could be sent for certification, at a reduced rate, at the buyers expense. Items sold over (x)$ would automatically be sent for certification. If the item failed, the buyer would be refunded and the seller would forfeit the stamp to the APS, effectively taking it out of circulation. That ought to scarce off the crooks. Sure some honest collectors might lose a few items, we probably all have a few fakes hidden in our collections. It's better to bite the bullet and get them out of the pipeline. And if you're really not sure, there is always Ebay. lol

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245 Posts
Posted 12/08/2016   1:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobplates to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I am a scrupulous seller. I have a stamp that I believe to be genuine and I offer it on the APS auction site. Let's call it a high value NH Zeppelin single. It sells for a price that is above the "threshold" price. It gets sent for a certificate. The certificate states that it was previously hinged. So lightly hinged in fact that it is not apparent to the seller who has looked at thousands of stamps(yes this does happen). In this case, does the seller have to donate the stamp to the APS? Or is the donation threshold something more serious like reperforation or a tear or re-backing?

How about if I am a collector and I sell an item that I incorrectly identify? In other words, I sell what I think is a $25 dollar stamp but it goes out for certificate and it turns out to be a $2500 stamp. Does it get returned to me or the APS? Does the protection for the uninformed only apply to the buyer?

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Posted 12/08/2016   1:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the item failed, the buyer would be refunded and the seller would forfeit the stamp to the APS, effectively taking it out of circulation.



The potential for gain inherent in this aspect opens the door to charges and complaints over conflict of interest. That would compromise the perceived integrity of whatever agency was running the operation. You don't want that to happen to the APS.

Moreover, since even experts make mistakes, delivery of "failed" items needs to be a voluntary action to an repository not directly connected to the transaction.

The simplest solution to these issues is to have this constructed, run and overseen by Stamp Smarter. Perhaps using only personnel vetted by the APS?
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428 Posts
Posted 12/08/2016   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ldhaber to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'd suggest that many of you are forgetting that an "experts" opinion is an opinion. Not only can opinions be wrong, they can change.
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Posted 12/08/2016   2:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kcaramat to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All I want to do is start the conversation, I certainly don't have the anwsers.

When I mentioned items would be retained by the APS, I'm referring to outright fakes and forgeries. Washington Franklin fake coils come to mind. There are more fakes floating around than the real thing. Fake vending & Affixing machine stamps come to mind as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't all of the items listed on the APS Stamp Store reside at the APS ? And doesn't the APS do the actual scanning of those items? Maybe this is where the stamp conditions ect. can be noted. I believe they combine lots purchased from multiple sellers and combine shipment. That would be a nice feature.

I have actually mentioned to Don that this would be the next logical addition to Stamp Smarter. He wasn't eager to tackle that project.

Reach for the stars, maybe we'll make it to the moon. It's better than stuck in the swamp.
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Edited by kcaramat - 12/08/2016 2:54 pm
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Posted 12/08/2016   3:43 pm  Show Profile Check KRelyea's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add KRelyea to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think this Ebay alternative is an interesting discussion but I wish it was in a separate topic so other people could join in.
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United States
428 Posts
Posted 12/08/2016   3:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ldhaber to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I do not disagree with the sentiments, but let me share a little bit of a story with you.

A couple of years ago I bought at auction, a major auction, a large lot of private vending coils. This material was being sold for an absolutely top flight philatelist. He won many gold medals and although I am not sure if he had won any grands, he was in that class. He was also active in the "running" of the hobby.

In any event, I won the lot and as was no surprise to me, a number of the higher value items had been sent out to be expertized, and came back as faked. In going through the material, I saw any number of other items that I did not like the look of. So I sent the almost the entire lot, around 40-50 items out to the expertized. Economically, it was not a rational decision but I was frustrated and wanted to be sure before placing the stuff in my album.

Of a total of 45 items submitted, 9 came back with big red warning labels on the cert. Fakes. There were also a handful of items that had rouletted perfs for which an opinion was declined. So, roughly a third of the stuff was no good.

This was from material that had been in the frames of a gold medal exhibit by a first rate collector. He missed it. He was human and made errors.

I would love to have a magic bullet here, but unfortunately short of using a recognized expertizing service, you are walking on very tricky ground and the one clear message is to study, learn and understand what you are handling if you wish to protect yourself and others. And, even then a service is no absolute answer. I have a early 20th century FDC that has a good cert, but which I know was faked by having the postmaster reset the machine. That is why these are opinions. Maybe I'm wrong. I have yet to shred the cover.

You have to be on your toes.
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Posted 12/08/2016   10:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add RK1468 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A bit off topic, ldhaber, but how did you learn of the FDC cover's history? Is there any way to know that it is a fake by examining it or is it based solely upon knowledge of its provenance?

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Posted 12/08/2016   10:38 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Free listings only encourage overpriced items and totally fill up searches with the same stamps over and over again, wasting everybody's time.


I hate it when they have the big free listing promos as the listings fill up with overpriced stuff.
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Posted 12/08/2016   10:40 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't all of the items listed on the APS Stamp Store reside at the APS ? And doesn't the APS do the actual scanning of those items? Maybe this is where the stamp conditions ect. can be noted


Yes they do the scanning, but if they also had to note conditions they would probably need to hire another person and then charge more for this service.
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Posted 12/08/2016   11:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the item failed, the buyer would be refunded and the seller would forfeit the stamp to the APS, effectively taking it out of circulation. That ought to scarce off the crooks.


No, it won't scare away the crooks. More likely, dealers with integrity would avoid the site. Keep in mind that dealers who verify their stamps and carefully check condition have less financial leeway than some dealer who lists every stamp good or bad without regard to identification or condition.

If I send a stamp for a certificate, I expect to get it back, if for no other reason than to be able to look at it carefully and learn from it. I have an extensive reference collection with many useful examples of altered stamps, fake cancels and suspect covers. While it is not possible to identify genuine stamps from a reference collection of fakes, it may be possible to classify fakes and correlate them to a known faker. Keep in mind that some Japanese forgeries have reportedly been plated.


Quote:
Items like these are exactly why I believe eBay should return to charging a listing fee based on starting price. Before sellers go all ballistic, eBay at the same time would reduce the final value fees, to equal net no change.

Free listings only encourage overpriced items and totally fill up searches with the same stamps over and over again, wasting everybody's time. If they still feel the need to offer free listings, put conditions on them. Like the start price plus shipping must total $1 or less.


Getting rid of the start price based listing fee was one of the best things eBay has done. The old system overcharged sellers of $10 to $50 lots, hitting stamp sellers particularly hard. The large number of low value stamp listings on eBay and Hipstamp seems to suggest that some sellers must have too much time on their hands or are not concerned with cash flow or making a profit.

Implicitly, eBay charges a listing fee to store owners followed by an actual listing fee listings after the monthly "free" allocation is used up. Sellers with no store get some free listings, but not enough to account for the number of low value listings. Some eBay buyers bid low because "they are afraid they will buy damages stamps they don't want and can't return", a quote from a Jim Kloetzel piece in the Scott Monthly Journal.

Again, the better stamp dealers have an implicitly lower margin. They will be the first to leave if eBay starts overcharging for listing better stamps. The scheme did help keep starting prices low but some dealers found other ways, like shill bidding to bump up the price. Other dealers simply moved to fixed price listings. Now that eBay stamp auctions are so anemic, raising listing fees on more expensive items may be the last nail in the coffin.
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Posted 12/09/2016   6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kcaramat to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Received this reply back from Scott English.

In the past couple of months, I've received the recommendation a few times to establish an auction site for APS members. In the coming year, this is something we will look at to determine if it is possible to offer obviously, development costs and some other issues may make it difficult, but it is an interesting suggestion and we appreciate it.

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Posted 12/09/2016   7:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Meanwhile, getting back to the Fulton full sheet would anyone else have paid $650 for that?
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Posted 12/09/2016   8:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kcaramat to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hell No ! The plate block of 6 is the best part of it and it's worth $40 tops.

Apparently the rising stock market has driven that price up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Full-Mint-S...AOSwNRdYB9vF
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Edited by kcaramat - 12/09/2016 8:49 pm
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