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Possible 177 Special Printing?

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Valued Member

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Posted 01/23/2017   6:36 pm  Show Profile Check matttodd1's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add matttodd1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
How does one tell the difference between the 90c large banknotes? Could the below really be a special printing, or might it just be an unused American printing (191), or worse, a proof masquerading as something more valuable?

From the scan it looks to me to be soft paper.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/US-Special-Pr...CHING_ACTIVE

Matt

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Posted 01/23/2017   8:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billw2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A) It's being sold by Philip Ryle aka The Cartel.

B) It's not a 177. Paper is wrong, and I have never seen one that didn't have scissor-separated perfs.

You simply do NOT buy one of these on eBay without a cert.
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Posted 01/23/2017   8:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike33 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The seller is a con man. Known around here as part of the "British Cartel"

stay far, far away
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Posted 01/24/2017   2:50 pm  Show Profile Check matttodd1's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add matttodd1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks all!

Matt
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Posted 01/24/2017   7:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The seller is a con man. Known around here as part of the "British Cartel"

Oh nooooo, I just bought two covers from this seller.
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Germany
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Posted 01/25/2017   03:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello, just to learn: what of the paper is wrong?

and another thing I always wanted to know about special printings: most of them are unused, but there is also a used one. So how could I find out if a used bank note is a special printing? normally it's said that it's the correct paper and without gum. But used stamps are always without gum :). So am I right that a normal person can't identify a used special printing?
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Posted 01/25/2017   06:58 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
http://www.stampsmarter.com/learnin...SStamps.html


http://www.stampsmarter.com/learnin...erTypes.html

General comments...
There are no shortcuts to learning paper types. Study the manufacturing of the period. Build a reference collections of stamp to learn and compare to. (Find stamps which were only manufactured with a specific paper type. Get certified stamps to use as comparisons.)

If you have a used stamp you can safely assume that it is not a Special Printing. Once you have schooled yourself well and have some correctly identified stamps in hand; note the perf tips. Handle the stamps (carefully) and learn the 'feel' of them and how they 'snap'.
Don

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Posted 01/25/2017   07:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Don,

thank you. I just don't understand it :). I know that you have to learn about paper, but when I read e.g. Bill Weiss "1870-1890 Bank Notes Easy Identidication" article, there are lists with the differences, but paper is not the difference, like:
Scott 182 + 192: both soft paper, same design
Scott 156 + 167: both hard paper, same design

So does it help to know the paper difference, if the paper makes no difference there?
That is just what I don't understand there, I know that it's about paper, but I find nowhere an explanation what the paper of the bank notes was in comparison, so "hard paper vs. hard paper" and "soft paper vs. soft paper". Have you another link for this perhaps? Or is really the NGAI the only possibility?

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Posted 01/25/2017   07:41 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here are few more links for you

http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa...ntifier.html

http://www.stampsmarter.com/1847usa...etMarks.html

There are also many other resources for learning about Bank Note issues. If you go to the Library section of Stamp Smarter you can also download resources like Brookman and Johl books.

This website is also great
http://www.usstamps.org/
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Posted 01/25/2017   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I know these great tables, I love that they are so helpful. Only, for my examples, the secret mark is not relevant, and in the tables I found nearly no differences. Let's take my mentioned example:
156 + 167.

It's all the same, both can be ultramarine, have no secret marks, no grill, same design, both hard paper. Only difference I see is that the 167 is not "white paper" but "very white paper".

So my last questions on this:
1- are there different hard white papers? (so also a very white...)
2- is this for used stamps also one of the few possibilities to check whether it is a special printing?
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Posted 01/25/2017   08:16 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not at home right now (sitting at Duke Cancer Center), perhaps others will help you.
Don
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Posted 01/25/2017   08:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yes perhaps :). my get-well wishes.
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Posted 01/25/2017   09:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have been a specialist in the Bank Note Issues since 1975. If I may be of service I am here.

Your two questions:
1. - yes, to a degree.
2. no.

In both cases other factors come into play. I'm not trying to be evasive, the matter is not as you suppose.

When considering the Special Printings it is not correct to assume that the differentiation is all about paper. Paper texture and color, ink color, quality of impression, evidence of never having been gummed - all of these factors come into play. The ONLY way to be absolutely certain that you have a Special Printing is to be able to compare it with a known example of a Special Printing and have it match on all points. The PF has a reference collection and copious notes profiling the characteristics of the Special Printings in that collection. If a stamp is submitted and does not compare well, it is rejected.

The Special Printings are few in number and were produced in two sets over two short periods of time. Because of this they have certain things in common with each other, but are barely different from the normal run of stamps.

No beginning collector, and few advanced students, are able to authenticate a Special Printing. I have been working with the Banknote papers for over 40 years, and I would not trust myself to expertise a Special Printing if I did not have a reference copy nearby.

This has never discouraged me from pursuing the Banknote Issues. I don't need the Special Printings to achieve my personal goals, and I don't listen to those who claim that my collection is nothing without them. I am not impressed by that, since I have many affordable items in my collection that are far rarer than any of the Special Printings. So to me such a claim would be ill informed and would not to be given a hearing. I feel anyone who wants to collect the BankNote Issues, and does not have unlimited funds, needs to look at it in a similar manner. (My 2c)

Despite all that, please do not hesitate to press your questions if you need something more.
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Posted 01/25/2017   10:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hello eassyk,

thank you, I appreciate that you and others spend their time to help other people including beginners.
I understand this better now, though one thing remains: There must by anything that lets someone considering that a identification and comparison (like at the PF) could be done. That this identification can't be done by a beginner is clear. But the what could lead to a decision that it should be identified by an expert?

You can also answer: nothing, a beginner can't see any difference there and so there will not be any stamp that is a candidate for certification (special printing).

By the way of course I absolutely agree that this is not the best aim so search or pay for the special printings just because others do it. I myself have just begun collecting, and under the few stamps I have there are many bank notes, so of course I read about special printing, and if there was any way that I could say "stop - what's this", like "very white paper" or "very fine printing quality", I would save this in my knowledge.

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Posted 01/25/2017   11:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PanAm Expo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
New member here, 40 years collecting, but my first post.

Just an observation, not confirmed, but I suspect the cartel / Phillip Ryle has been using the dealer name "bank-notes" on eBay since September 2016. I didn't see this name mentioned in the previous threads.

Stating the obvious here, but anyone new to this forum who buys stamps on eBay needs to be aware of the cartel / Phillip Ryle dealer sights, as there are several. I have often noticed the same recognizable item being listed numerous times over consecutive weeks, but the full extent of the shilling schemes didn't really click for me until I read the threads here. Great knowledge share.
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Posted 01/26/2017   10:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Welcome to the list Pan Am. This list is rapidly becoming a valuable collector resource and gathering ground. I hope you plan to stay.


@joker

Quote:
But the what could lead to a decision that it should be identified by an expert?



I understand what you are asking, and it is a fair question. Here are some checkpoints.

1. Is the stamp free of cancellation? Forget about used stamps. I have already explained before that since the SP were issued without gum, they had to be mounted on a cover with some sort of glue. Getting such a stamp off the cover would entail damaging it to a greater or lesser degree, particularly if it is on soft paper.

2. Is there any evidence of your stamp having once had gum? The paper must be uniform and without stain. Check it in daylight, artificial light, and UV light. If it is uniformly white, that is a good sign.

3. Is the impression "proof-like"? To determine this, buy a set of clean plate proofs on India paper, and another on cardstock. Use the India paper set to compare with hard paper stamps, and the set on cardstock to compare with soft paper stamps.

4. Is the color shade identical with known Special Printings? Without a touchstone example, all you can do is get close. But you will still need to have a thorough working knowledge of the shades of the regular stamps as well as the Special Printings.


If the impression on stamp paper compares favorably with the proofs, and the paper is uniformly white and without stain, and the color is in range for the listed color of a SP, then you have a candidate worthy of submitting for a certificate.
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Edited by essayk - 01/26/2017 11:00 am
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