Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Help With Watermark (Small Double Line?)

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 2,840Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community

1375 Posts
Posted 04/30/2017   4:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

do you see a watermark here? I do, but it's a bit mystic as it could be a double line watermark (P?) but is too small for it. I can't see a single line watermak either - so perhaps no watermark at all?

thank you for some ideas!



Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
7754 Posts
Posted 04/30/2017   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stamperix, ho did you take this picture? Did you hold a strong light behind the stamp?
One really good way is to use water mark fluid and then immediately scan the stamp.


Peter
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 04/30/2017   5:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hi - this is in Signoscope T1.

PS: the watermark is really visible very clearly there (prominent), better than on the photo.

---
Just made another photo, perhaps better.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by stamperix - 04/30/2017 5:40 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1189 Posts
Posted 04/30/2017   7:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That is a double line watermark, apparently the top of the "P."
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 05/01/2017   05:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, that's was my thought, too. But isn't it too small? I just made another photo in comparison. Also the lines of the other watermark are finer.

Are there any other watermarks, like experimental double line?

(Don't look at the color or sharpness of the two photos, I had to use some additional foil for the smaller watermark as there is a hinge left and this is always a problem in this device.)

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   08:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello again,

I did wash the stamp now and the hinge could be easily removed. So I made a new photo in the Signoscope. Generally (as you could see with the "S" double line watermark above) I get good results in there which I can take photos of. So I did again and show you the watermark in question. Well, it didn't really change :). Still some kind of small double watermark, like a (small size) "P" or perhaps also end of a (normal size) "U".

I hope that you have seen more watermarks than me and can help me here. Do you see a watermark, and if yes, a 190 or 191?

(by the way this is just an ordinary 2 Cents W-F stamp with older design, as I just check some W-Fs for the watermarks)


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
4074 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   09:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stamperix, a bit of gentle advice. The more information you can give to the Community from the start, the better the speed and quality of the return comments. Specifically, it would be very helpful if you could please post a normal scan of the front and back of the stamp in question. Only an hour ago did you finally mention this was a W/F issue. It would have been helpful to know that from the beginning.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1098 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   10:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Al E. Gator to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Based on your last image, it appears to be the top portion on a single-line "P" What you're seeing that appears to be a double loop in the "P" isn't a part of the watermark, but some other anomaly in the paper. Since you've now identified it as an "older" 2c W/F, that would make it a #375.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   12:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you both.
I am sorry. To be honest, at the beginning I just thought I ask a little watermark question :) and didn't think it's necessary to show to front. But now I know better. Anyway I also think that it's though a single line P. What confused me is not only the little line at the left end of the P, but mostly the very fine and clear "double line curve" at the right. The single line watermarks I have seen are not so fine. That's why I just showed the picture here to see if other eyes see other things (other parts of a 190 or a 191). But it stayed with a P, but single line. Thank you.

---
To see the results I just made a try with wash petrol/benzine from the pharmacy. The image is pretty similar, I still see a "small double line" :). Sure, I assume now that this doesn't exist and it has to be a 191, but still this is really a tricky one, isn't it :)?

(I was wrong with the design, it's a A140, the 2-Cents-2. But I think you don't need it anymore as a front scan, if you all will agree that this is a single line P.)

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by stamperix - 05/02/2017 2:21 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1266 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   2:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another reason that seeing the front of the stamp would have helped is that there is only one perf 12 A140 2-cent stamp (Scott 406). It can be readily identified without even looking for a watermark, though this stamp certainly provides good watermarking practice.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
802 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   4:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lastly, seeing the front of the stamp can help rule out some potential marks that might appear as a watermark from the back but are merely cancellation marks on the front!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
1098 Posts
Posted 05/02/2017   5:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Al E. Gator to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If it is a "2-cent-2" and not the "Two Cent" W/F it could only be a single-line watermark. Single-line watermarks, at least for me, can be difficult to determine at times. I see what your seeing, but it can not be a portion of the watermark, unless you've discover a heartofore unknown.... Good post--interesting scan. I'd still post the front for us to see....
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 05/03/2017   09:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello you three, ok here I go and show more photos. It's really interesting spending so much time with such a normal stamp :). As you can see there is no cancel or other artifact at the bottom of the stamp where the watermark is (it's not at the top where is probably a thin). The last photo shows the same photo of the back but photoshopped, and there you can also see the two double lines.











Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1414 Posts
Posted 05/03/2017   11:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp appears to have a small thin at the top. Thins will show up in watermark fluid, especially lighter fluid like Ronsonol. For this reason, the made in US lighter fluid is the preferred choice of professional philatelists for detecting thins in US stamps. Some say that lighter fluid made in other countries could contain petrochemical impurities potentially harmful to stamps. Careful testing is suggested for product not labeled Zippo Manufacturing Company, Bradford, PA.

Use of a mechanical watermark detector could produce random results with US single line watermarks or unwatermarked stamps with the partial "S" resulting from incomplete removal from dandy rolls at the time watermarking ended or from low quality paper found in some stamps produced during World War I.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
1375 Posts
Posted 05/03/2017   1:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. Yes, there is a thin and I saw this in the Signoscope as well. The thin is not on the position of the watermark on this stamp, the first picture in this thread was upside down, all the others show it correct (watermark at bottom, thin at top). So at the watermark position I can't see any artifact. But I know that it has to be a 191 :).

The Signoscope really helps me a lot, as it is easy to use, fast, and in 99% I can see the US watermarks 190 or 191. There are several foils you can use, without them you can forget this, but with them it's really nice.



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 2,840Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2022 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.67 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05