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90 Cents Perry With Grill?

 
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Posted 06/12/2017   08:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

I would like to show this 90c stamp. I know it's not in a good shape, still it has no really big crease or tear. But the color is missing on two areas.

Are these blank areas just damaged? Or missing ink? Or has this stamp in general a color / ink / quality problem?
Is the brown area just dirty or any cancel-like thing?

And: I see something like a grill (last photo). Can you see what I mean, and is there any chance in this damaged stamp to know which grill it could be?

stamperix






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Edited by stamperix - 06/12/2017 08:34 am

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Posted 06/12/2017   09:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are correct the stamp does appear to be grilled. It may be an I grill or just a fake grill. The most likely explanation for the white areas is that they are scuffs. If you put the stamp in watermark fluid (face down) and see large dark areas where the printing is white then they are probably missing paper on the front of the stamp and that means scrapes or scuffs. Scrapes and scuffs are just thins on the front of the stamp.
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Posted 06/12/2017   09:37 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 90 cent National is only known with a H grill, according to my old 1996 Scott Specialized. The cancel is gray/black in his hair, and possibly in amongst the brown whatever that is. Yep, looks like the Commodore could use a bath. Room temp distilled or purified water, take no chance with chlorine in your water supply, Oliver couldn't afford to loose any more color.

Those two colorless spots wouldn't be scrapes, would they? Is the paper disturbed in those areas?
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Edited by littleriverphil - 06/12/2017 11:12 am
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Posted 06/12/2017   10:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello and thank you.
Yes I think at the end it's a thin those white areas.
I made two other photos. It's very hard to get the grill on the image, as it can only be seen with light coming from the side.

I'm also sure that there are grill points there. And not only at the kind of square but also more to the margin/corner. But still it is very hard to see for me where it ends and if it's a H oder I or another (fake) grill?



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Posted 06/12/2017   11:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is sometime possible to get an impression of the grill using very lightweight aluminum foil. Place over grill, rub lightly.
Not recommended, but,To see the grill clearer, some folks high light the raised points of the grill with graphite, Take a soft lead pencil, rub lightly across a piece of scrap paper, rub with fingertip then apply gently to suspected grill area.


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Edited by littleriverphil - 06/12/2017 11:32 am
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Posted 06/12/2017   11:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As Bill said, the stamp does appear to be have a grill. Ignore the 1996 Scott. Despite the earlier work of specialists, proper recognition of the I grill wasn't given in the catalog until 2013. 90c I-grills do have catalog status now. However, the convention is that unless you can positively identify a grill as an I-grill, it must be regarded as an H-grill. With the tools you have used so far, the grill points on your stamp do not show enough to make the claim for an I-grill. I do NOT recommend using the graphite test on this one since it will only complicate matters without showing enough more to settle the question of grill type.

However, if it were submitted to the PF for a cert and studied with better tools, more might be visible (though I would not bet on that). Be prepared for the certificate to be costly, since an authentic H-grill has high value and an authentic 90c I-grill would merit a certificate costing over $1000. A fake grill will cost the minimum to certify (but who wants that?). Then again, with allowance for the scuffs, the poor centering, the smeared cancellation, and the natural straight edge, you will qualify for the discount rate for a cert from the PF.

My main reservation about this stamp is the color I am seeing on my monitor (which I do not consider reliable). On my screen it appears rather pale for a typical National 90c. All the more reason to look carefully at the grill.


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Edited by essayk - 06/12/2017 11:58 am
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Posted 06/12/2017   1:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The perfs and impression do appear to be a hard paper stamp. The secret with using graphite is to have a very light touch; most people do not really know how to do this properly. Done properly it might actually show considerably more then you think.
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Posted 06/12/2017   2:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So will watermark fluid, especially Ronsonol.
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Posted 06/12/2017   3:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I tried very hard to make the grill become more visible, with aluminium foil and many photos. At least I know now that the point get out at the back of the stamp, and they are vertical ridges. But this you all knew probably already. I show two of the photos here. Perhaps somebody has more luck with photoshop with the second photo which is original and not changed. Next step will be watermark fluid and graphite, but the stamp is quite sad already, don't want to bother it. But does anybody see "more grill" than me? I am not sure which of all those "hills" is a grill point, so in which direction from the obvious "square" the grill expands?

About the PF and its fees: So you have to pay depending on the CV, that's clear. But what in a case where the stamp is quite damaged, like here - do I have to pay it anyway, or is this what you meant by "discount rate"? So do I have to pay (theoretically) 1000 USD if the CV is so high, although the stamp wouldn't be worth even this fee?

About the color: Yes, it's not a dark color, but in reality less pink and more carmine. In the SG Color Key it's quite close to the "Carmine Rose". I will make a scan tomorrow and adapt it with color management.



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Posted 06/14/2017   03:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I show two more photos. I think that the grill is longer than 13 points, so it has to be a H grill? I only wonder about the grill point at the top area which appear horizontal ridges, but probably they aren't points.

Interesing as well: the "dirty" brown-red are seems to be no dirty. Under UV light I can see letters, perhaps the "PA..." of PAID ALL?



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Edited by stamperix - 06/14/2017 06:43 am
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Posted 06/14/2017   12:30 pm  Show Profile Check rlsny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlsny to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
PF charges $75 max if it is serious damaged
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Posted 06/14/2017   12:52 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Posted 06/14/2017   3:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you, interesting, both PF information and eBay. I will see if I will perhaps still try the watermark or graphite thing. But for now I am happy to have such an interesting stamp in my album. If somebody knows which cancel (Paid?) this brown could be I am sill happy to read it anyway.
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Posted 06/15/2017   6:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Under oblique light the grill appears to be too large to be an I grill. Ronsonol under oblique light may help expose the grill. I would not recommend using graphite. The decision to add I grills to the Scott Catalog were based on articles by Ron Burns. They can be accessed from the American Philatelic Research Library or in the United States Philatelic Classics Society journal and other publications. Membership in the APS and USPCS would open access to additional information. While the information in the Scott US Specialized catalog is quite condensed, it does mention the most pertinent facts including how to separate early from late state H or I grills.

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