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Valued Member
United States
9 Posts
Posted 03/27/2021   09:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add elfstone99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Question for Machin collectors. I have the Scott Machins album, and for the most part, Scott has skipped over most of the varieties when it comes to phosphors and so on. It's pretty much a basic album for Machins. Question is this. What is everyone else doing with their pre-decimal regionals and with the newer country definitive issues? Are you leaving them in with the GB pages, or are you incorporating them with the Machins?
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United Kingdom
5847 Posts
Posted 03/27/2021   09:17 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't collect GB decimal issues, but I house the regional £sd definitives separately at the end of Great Britain. I use quadrille pages for GB, not a printed album.
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Posted 03/27/2021   09:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are no pre-decimal regional Machins. Whereas the national (pre-decimal) Machins replaced the Wildings from 5 June 1967 onwards, regional Machins did not replace Wildings before decimalisation day (15 february 1971).

On a more general note: since I make my own album pages, I can do as I like. I have separate pages for my Wilding regionals. Each region has its own pages. Since I order my Machins by face value and not by watermark/paper type/graphite/phosphor colour/phosphor bar width/source, they get mixed in with the national ones.

I have a separate album for the regional "Emblems." They are not Machins, only listed in the Deegam Handbook, but so are decimal "Wildings."
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Edited by NSK - 03/27/2021 09:33 am
Valued Member
United States
9 Posts
Posted 03/27/2021   09:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add elfstone99 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
NSK, that's my issue with the regionals. With the Machin album being separated by Scott from the rest of the GB album, it almost feels as if you have 2 collections and it's odd. Trying to decide if I should move all the regionals in with the Machins, even though they aren't considered as such.
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Posted 03/27/2021   11:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not familiar with Scott. On this side of the water, you hardly hear of or see it. If there is a separate Scott Machins album, I would say Machin regionals belong in that album, other regionals do not.

The "Emblem" regionals have David Gentleman's cameo and the pre-decimal regionals are "Wildings." They are not in any way related to Machins, other than they were in use contemporanously. And a number of Wilding regionals were not even in use contemporaneously. Only the ones on clay-coated (chalk-surfaced) paper without watermark were issued when the Machins were in use. But if contemporaneous issuance is the key, all the commemoratives and postage dues issued since 1967, as well as all decimal Wildings qualify.

Both national and regional stamps were valid nationwide and in each of the regions. The only thing that made a regional stamp regional is that they replaced the corresponding national stamps at post offices in the respective regions, at least initially. Philatelic counters sold both. Regional stamps, normally and until Royal Mail issued English regionals, were not available in most of England. The philatelic counters at the Trafalgar Square and King William Street post offices had them.

Thinking about that, I do not understand why my DAVO album (also marketed as Stanley Gibbons) had national stamps mixed in with the commemoratives, but regionals in a separate section at the back of the album.
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Edited by NSK - 03/27/2021 11:28 am
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Posted 03/27/2021   11:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Ringo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have machins in their own album, and regionals separated from the standard ones but in the same album.

What used to happen was that a rate change would lead to a new set of normal Machins, then a bit later, regional equivalents would be issued. Not all new values were issued as regionals, and they sometimes differed in colour (not dramatically, but there are differences). So, I treat them as a separate topic, though related, and wouldn't mix them in. Regionals stopped around the year 2000 (? I'd have to look it up to be sure) whereas the standard ones carried on.

My Machin album sections are in order pre-decimal / decimal / Isle of Man / Northern Ireland / Scotland / Wales ... and then others (NVI, anniversary issues etc).
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Edited by Ringo - 03/27/2021 11:42 am
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Posted 03/27/2021   1:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@Ringo,

You are correct. Northern Ireland was the last region for which Royal Mail issued a regional Machin stamp.

The Machin regionals were replaced by the "Emblem" regionals from 1999. The issuance of "Emblem" regionals followed the devolution of the parliaments of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. It was deemed suitable for countries (Northern-Ireland, sometimes, is considered a region) that had devolved parliaments to also have their own stamps instead of "British" stamps.

The national stamps of Scotland and Wales were issued on 6 June 1999. The Good Friday Agreement had been signed in 1998 and the parliament had been elected in the same year. However, the Unionists did not want to co-operate with Sinn Féin until the IRA had assured to cease operations. This delayed full devolution until 2 December 1999. This was also the reason that "Emblem" definitives were not issued for Northern Ireland until 6 March 2001.

With Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland getting their own stamps, English people felt they should also have their national stamps. This led to the issuance of English "Emblem" definitives on 21 April 2001.
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Edited by NSK - 03/27/2021 6:04 pm
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800 Posts
Posted 03/27/2021   4:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Ringo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. I didn't know that back story, but realised that not all three regions stopped at the same time.

As a collector of Machins, I can't help but be interested in the Wildings too, and the later regional emblem stamps. So many of them, they're almost a topic by themselves!
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Posted 03/27/2021   5:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Douglas Myall collected Wildings. He published a handbook of Wilding coil leaders. I posted the link somewhere on this forum. I am not completely sure whether he published a handbook on the Wilding issues. He, certainly, was considering doing so.

The Stanley Gibbons Great Britain Specialised Catalogue has a comprehensive listing of pre-decimal Wilding stamps. Not counting watermark varieties and coil stamps there are well over 160. Including stamps from coils and booklets, a collection will run in the hundreds of stamps. Unfortunately, the only dealer I am aware of that offered specialised Wildings (he also offered specialised Machins) retired. I still am missing several stamps from vertical and horizontal delivery coils; mostly those made up from sheets. On a basic SG Specialised level, B&B stamps offers quite a few.

There also is a thread on Wildings with a link to a site with in-depth information on it.
http://goscf.com/t/29480
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New Member
United Kingdom
1 Posts
Posted 04/03/2021   11:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cheesie to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a trick to separate Enschede, Walsall and Questa self adhesive printings for self adhesives 2nd and first class Machins. Walsall queens image is about 0.5 mm closer to the right stamp margin. If you cut a scrap known Walsall stamp from the security overprint issues 2018 onwards neatly through the crown, then use this on the unknown stamp aligning the Left printed area then getting the crown pattern to match. If the queens forehead aligns it is a Walsall stamp. If the cut stamps forehead is 0.5 mm or more to the right of the checked stamp it is either of the other two printers. Look at the corners if they are nearly flat at 45 degrees it is Enschede if there is a noticeable cleavage it's Questa. There appear to be two perf cuts one 'steeper' than the other for the Questa assigned stamps. Walsall stamps are the most variable in colour. Enschede have a less well defined image.



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Australia
273 Posts
Posted 04/05/2021   06:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Penguins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Imprint varieties on Great Britain QEII 2/- booklets.
Hello all,

Checking through my Machin booklets, I looked at SG to see what the NP 36a (For You at You) was catalogued at.
Having found that, I noticed other varieties on the imprint lines on the bottom of the back pages and this is what I found in relation to items I have.


NP 36a The well known FOR YOU AT YOU 55 instead of FOR YOU AT AGE 55 Catalogued £50

NP 38a HARRISOU & SONS instead of HARRISON Catalogue £25

NP 34b LOODON instead of LONDON Catalogued a massive £150 (Or is this in itself a misprint?)

These listings are taken from SG QEII Pre-decimal Vol 3 13th Edition.

Are these prices for real?

Even the NP 36a seems well overpriced let alone the NP 34b.
These imprint variations were not listed in the earlier catalogue I have which is the eighth edition.


In the illustration of NP 34b attached the second O of LOODON is broken in the centre.
Would that still be classed as O?

There are many varieties on actual stamps catalogued at less than what would appear to be fly-specks,
or am I just off the planet?

Cheers
Ron





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Posted 04/05/2021   06:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As to flyspecks: what Stanley Gibbons lists and prices are constant positional flaws. They list minor constant flaws. They do not list every misplaced droplet of ink.

SG Catalogues are price lists. They show the retail prices at which Stanley Gibbons sells the stamps if available. They have a big organisation with experts that check the stamps for genuineness. They have a big shop on an expensive street. Many stamp dealers had shops on The Strand, but moved away.

SG's catalogue prices are for stamps in excellent condition. Most of these booklets have panes with very short perforations. That, usually. throws the price of a cliff. Stanley Gibbons prices are for booklets that have all panes with (average to) good perforations.
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Valued Member
Australia
273 Posts
Posted 04/06/2021   07:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Penguins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello NSK and thanks for the feedback.

I think I may not have put my point across very well.

Having been a collector for more than half a century I am well aware of Stanley Gibbons and had in fact visited their shop in the Strand, back in the '60's.
I would be lost without their invaluable catalogues and am in awe of the amount of work and information that goes into them.

I take your point regarding booklets and perforations and realise there is a large difference between the price of good perfs all round and those less so.

However, SG lists NP34 booklet at £1.10 NP36 £1.75 and NP38 at £1.25.

Were the ordinary booklets catalogued anywhere near the variety prices I could understand it.
but the jump from £1.10 to £150 seems incredible for one wrong letter on an imprint on the back cover of the booklet.

Am I missing something here?

Regards

Ron (Quite a lot of Machin articles on our information only, advert free website at)
http://www.earsathome.com
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United States
3152 Posts
Posted 08/20/2021   08:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I purchased the Deegam Handbook 5. I learned in the process Gerry Fisk is not longer om the team and the handbook is distributed electronically. When the upgrade was announced, you had to return the original CD but that is no longer required.

Much easier now. The upgrade was £25.
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Al
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