Belgian Blue 2 Centime Postmark

Thanks for that extra input Rod

This gives me more of an idea how they were used.

Personally, I never thought of them as a precancel but did hear about being used on leftover stamps, which may not be that correct. So, I can assume now that these were more or less used as an 'emergency' marking if the regular cancelling devices were not available?

Thanks again

Chimo

Bujutsu

Ah! I see filipo,
what a delightful heirloom.
I can see your point.

Bujutsu, it's still hard to say,
we tend to only beleieve what is in print,
but even that is incorrect sometimes.
I think the debate is still open.
Personally, I imagine a clerk, somewhere down the line
when spotting a cover that has been cancelled, but has missed
one particular stamp in another part of the cover,
runs the roller over it, but that is just guessing.

A reply from Ryan, a member of SCF in 2009 I think.....

My copy of the last mentioned precancel catalogue above contains no
reference (that I can find) to the "pizza wheel".
My 2007 "Officiële Belgische Postzegelcatalogus" contains the
following text (presented in the original - I struggle with Dutch /
Flemish, similar enough to German that I can sort of figure it out but
different enough that I'm never too sure):

"Vanaf 10-12-1869 treft men roulette afstempelingen aan van de spaarkas
om zegels te ontwaarden." (accompanied by graphic of the cancellation)

Best guess is that this means the cancellation began in December
1869, used on stamps cancelled at the post office savings bank.
This article on Belgian precancels mentions the savings bank
cancellation only in regard to being a second cancel, similar to US
precancels that then get a regular postal cancellation stamped over top
of them.

http://www.precancels.com/foreign/belgium688.htm

Ryan

That said, of my 80 or so examples,
I have only one sporting a pizza wheel and a part CDS, together.

@jhlovell

The stamp is cancellede with a Rollerstamp. In 1850 the Belgian autoritets wanted the belgians to have an individual saving to improvethe livingconditions of the population in Belgium

Caisse génénerale d'epargne a savingdocument where introducede in the 1850's and was in use up till the 1900's.

The savingdocument was 1 Frank and could be attached with different stamp values up to 1 Frank. An exsample 10 * 10 Centimes, 20 * 5 centimes or with 50 * 2 centimes blue. The doucments was rollercancelled in the Bank, later also postoffices was allowed to take the deposit.

Here is blok of 25 * 2 Centimes Blue Rollercancelled the 2 centimes also is known in paleblue.

From the text rod222 quotes, it is not a precancel, but a cancellation after the stamps have been used, probably affixed to a savings form or in a savings account book.

When I was a child, I could buy savings stamps at school. I had to stick them in a booklet. Once full, I could bring the booklet to the Post Office. There, the amount represented by the stamps in the booklet was transferred into my savings account with the State Post Savings Bank (now integrated in ING Bank). The stamps were invalidated (ontwaard).

The Belgian scheme may have been comparable in that the stamps when handed into the general savings bank and later post office were invalidated and the amount was transferred into the savings account.

The roller cancel on the block looks the same as that seen on the 1875 5F stamp, and others of course.

http://goscf.com/t/72257

This is from my collection, and this is what the rollercancel was used for. Sorry it is in Danish, but this is a Caisse génerál d'espargne and as you can see there has been made a deposit of 1 Fr.

The Netherlands also had a saving form as NSK points out, Bobby de la Rue's Belgian 5 Fr have a rollercancel, but is F S on the back =(False Stamp)?

FS on the back of Bobby's stamp is just an owner - or seller mark


Peter

Not my stamp folks!

Not impossible, but it is somewhat questionable for an English native to refer to a forgery as a "false stamp." It becomes questionable if a continental European would use English rather than German, Dutch, or French, as they would be more focused on the home or regional market considering it is a Belgian stamp. The abbreviation does not fit those languages.

NSK seems like you are right, must be an owner stamp. false stamp is marked different.

I will mark false stamps with red ink in the center of the stamp and write "FALSK"

I would STRONGLY advise against this, especially if the stamp is a classic forgery.

If you want to highlight a stamp is a forgery, write on the back in soft pencil, NOT INK!

@Bobby De La rue

I have no problem in doing so if the Stamps is not marked as false I do not want it to go away and if you try to remowe it the stamp turn red.

I can tell you that a lot of Belgian stamps is sold at Ebay as genuine, they are not marked as false and is sold to stampcollectors with little or no knowledge of what they buy I can find and identify at least 10 to 20 lot with false stamp sold as genuine stamps, I do not know how you will fell if you bought air described as gold.

I just make sure they are marked forever.

I did say 'classic' forgeries. Spiro, Panelli, Fournier etc. These, if they exist, should be pretty obvious to someone who knows their subject well.

Did Sperati forge any Belgium stamps? Some Speratis are worth more then the genuine article. Probably not the case if they've been defaced in the manner you describe.

I'm well aware that there are a number of forgeries in early Belgium, but for pre 1940, the two to most watch out for would be the 1933 Orval top value and the 1876 5F, both of which should probably be purchased with a certificate. I would imagine there's clever forgeries of the 1919 2F?

Modern productions? Mark them as you see fit, as there are some very good reproductions around.

As for ebay, there'd be many more sellers who don't know they're selling forgeries than those that do.

FS for Fac-Simile ?