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Difference between "Intaglio" & "Photogravure" Printings  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   04:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Glenn,

the NRM took their secret into their firm's grave...

No, what they explained to me - I have a letter in Dutch from them and I was in their printing house - is that the main thing was to have somewhat askew lines, elliptoids, circles to hold the ink! As to the Swiss examples they even had the whole set of images on the cylinder a bit askew so that on an individual stamp the direction of paper is a bit askew as well!

I will look up my correspondence and show it here.

groetjes, Rein
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   07:25 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, how time flies!

I was a 20 years old student trying to get in touch with the NRM after hearing from my uncle they had been involved in stamp printing.

The letter does just explain the usual way of making photogravure cylinders, but the photograph may tell you some more... At least that is was made in 1927 or later [the Italian stamp] and that the Argentina Rivadavia trial came from them...






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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   07:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is also good to have some distance!

It is not unlikely that the NRM were in touch with the IPS, Rome, as this does not quite look the stamp itself!

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   07:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The NRM did print stamps for Peru in 1924 - also in cooperation with Harrison and Sons ?

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   07:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply




In spite of what the extension hole may suggest, this stamp had been printed on the new Goebel rotary the IPS had acquired, in photogravure and perforated with a sheet block. Direction of printing R - i.e. the ink flows towards the right...
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   08:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These definitives were screenless! Just like the South African Pictorials the next year.

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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   4:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



Quote:
In spite of what the extension hole may suggest, this stamp had been printed on the new Goebel rotary the IPS had acquired, in photogravure and perforated with a sheet block. Direction of printing R - i.e. the ink flows towards the right...


Rein, where is the extension hole and
what does perforated with a sheet block mean ?

What are you trying to show in the two images
below the NRM letter?

So this Dutch firm "Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij"
improved and was responsible for innovations in the
photogravure process ?

And NRM in partnership with Goebel who manufactured the
printing presses, then either printed the actual stamps
as for the two Swiss stamp issues 1927, 1928 or helped the
Mexican, Argentinian and Italian (IPS) printers in
developing this process?

But NRM had also printed stamps for Egypt in 1923 and
for Peru in 1924?

Did NRM also have anything to do with the Mexican 1917
issues.

When did NRM begin aiding Enschedé with their
photogravure printing?

I'm just trying to get some sort of timeline for all this.

Also it appears that the Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij
had the same type of partnership/arrangement with Goebel,
as did Giori with Koenig & Bauer.



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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   6:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Rein, where is the extension hole and
what does perforated with a sheet block mean ?


The single perforation-hole at the left between the "LL" - usually such "extension hole" would be repeated all along the left margin of the sheet suggesting that a horizontal comb-perforator was in use. It seems to me that a complete sheet of 10x10 was perforated in ONE blow. Of course this is a speculation that no doubt could be supported or not by Italian specialists.


Quote:

What are you trying to show in the two images
below the NRM letter?


I got this extra sheet with the two images as an attachment to their letter and the remark that this should explain the way they worked...


Quote:

So this Dutch firm "Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij"
improved and was responsible for innovations in the
photogravure process ?


YES!


Quote:

And NRM in partnership with Goebel who manufactured the
printing presses, then either printed the actual stamps
as for the two Swiss stamp issues 1927, 1928 or helped the
Mexican, Argentinian and Italian (IPS) printers in
developing this process?


The Swiss stamps were printed in Leiden by the NRM but probably perforated in Switzerland.

The NRM helped Goebel in developing and promoting their narrow cylinder reel-fed presses [photogravure, recess] they started to sell since 1928. The history of that cooperation has never been written to some extent although some of it may be found in South African literature about the "Darmstadt Trials" .. I will get back to that and most likely Glenn also may do so...


Quote:

But NRM had also printed stamps for Egypt in 1923 and
for Peru in 1924?


Apart from that there are many more trials and essays of the 1923-1945 period with lots of countries involved. I had a look at their archive material just before the merger of the NRM and Spaarnestad. After my visit everything got out of sight and nobody now knows what happened to it! The Dutch Postal Museum in The Hague refused to help me in saving the NRM material as it didn't have anything to do the Netherlands Philately so they said...


Quote:

Did NRM also have anything to do with the Mexican 1917
issues.


NO! Too early! The NRM started a weekly coloured magazine called Panorama in 1913 printed in photogravure all the way!


Quote:

When did NRM begin aiding Enschedé with their
photogravure printing?


They did not at all! There was NRM instructing Harrison and Sons just before the 1923 Egypt stamps.


Quote:

I'm just trying to get some sort of timeline for all this.


Excellent!


Quote:

Also it appears that the Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij
had the same type of partnership/arrangement with Goebel,
as did Giori with Koenig & Bauer.


Looks like it!
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 02/12/2014   7:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So Enschedé developed their own photogravure process
without any help from Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij ?

I see in Michel that Enschedé already printed the first Netherland\s
photogravure stamps in 1924, Michel 138 - 140.

Who manufactured the printing press(es) for this printer?


Quote:
It seems to me that a complete sheet of 10x10 was perforated in ONE blow.


That sounds like Harrow perforation.
German name is Kastenzähnung ----> Box Perforation
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/13/2014   04:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
JOHEZ had several Palatia presses in the 1924-1984 period [Albert, machine factory in Frankenthal, Pfalz, hence the name "Palatia"; Albert is the "A' in "KBA"] all sheet-fed. Since 1935 also a reel-fed press from the same firm called here the "Albert Frankenthal". Only around 1956-60 other better-known firms were introduced here by JOHEZ: a Goebel reel-fed press called "Regina" and a reel-fed Chambon press. The last photogravure presses [both Goebel 5 colours] were introduced in 1985 and 1991, but were dismantled subsequently one/two years ago: last printings in December 2012.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 02/16/2014   5:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This The Essay Proof Journal has more information
regarding who did print the 1927 and 1928 Pro Juventute photogravure stamps.





As per legend both were printed in Holland.

H – Holland (probably Enschede & Co.)


So Rein you were right about them not having been printed by
Eidgen.Münze (M – Federal Mint) but no mention of Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij either.

Pro Juventute 1927

R - Rotogravure H – Holland (probably Enschede & Co. U – Unwatermarked,G – Granite paper (red and blue fibers)
JCopper plates




Pro Juventute 1928

R - Rotogravure H – Holland (probably Enschede & Co. U – Unwatermarked F – White paper




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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/17/2014   01:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry,

Lithograving,

there is no probably!

1927 and 1928 30rp by NRM, Leiden in screenless photogravure [but for the red cross, that was screened]
1929 all face vlaues by Johez, Haarlem in screened photogravure.

When they used the term "probably Enschede & Co" you might as well assume they had not disclosed the Swiss PTT archives ....

Serious students of essays and proofs should have known the backgrounds of the South African Darmstadt Trials and the role the NRM played.

In short, this article does NOT bring us any new, relevant information.

groetjes, Rein
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Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/20/2014   06:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 1917 Próceres - Statesmen series seems to have been printed in screenless photogravure. Some values resemble traditional recess a bit more like the 4c but about most others I have no doubt!










Apart from the technical aspects look at the ornamentals!
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Edited by Galeoptix - 02/20/2014 06:58 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/20/2014   06:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



At least 2 values seem to have had both engraved [steel-engraving?] and etched [copper-etching?] plates:

5c Maclovio Herrera:




10c Francisco Madero:





the 5c has a completely different design and there is no name mentioned!
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/20/2014   07:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


The 1c Eagle of 1915 is just the start of the experiments. Some 15 years later the Oficina de Hacienda had perfectioned the unscreened process:





A side line is the complexity of the Mexican watermarks:



The blue lines following the diagonals of the symmetrical paper wire, the orange line pointing in the direction of the text line; and the yellow line following an identical character in a subsequent line of watermark - "MEXICO CORREOS"

No doubt they must have had contact with European printers like the Nederlandsche Rotogravure Maatschappij, at Leiden, the Netherlands and the printing press manufacturer GOEBEL AG at Darmstadt, Germany.

The NRM had played an important role in introducing the then rather new printing process of photogravure in Europa and also had had their own particular contribution in the form of the so-called "unscreened" method. A method with a result very close to that of recess printing but so much more cheaper! The poor-mans recess they might have called it.
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