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Venezuela : ID : Escuelas Opt And Punched Issue.

 
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Posted 09/04/2011   03:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add rod222 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message


Also have an early, mint issue, full gum, with punched
irregular hole.
Remainders? used as a revenue receipt?
any info welcomed.




Also Telegraph with what looks to be postal pmk.
Did Telegraphs receive the same hammer in the office?




Also issue with a moire opt that looks to have a design,
seen it before but not sure what the significance.




Thanks
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Edited by rod222 - 09/04/2011 09:14 am

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Posted 09/04/2011   03:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rodney,

Stamp 1: SG 1861 Scott C864
For overprints like this first look at SG 1842-1896

Stamp 2: SG 365 Scott 274
punch probably means that it was used as a telegraph since there were not too many stamps issued as telegraph (6 stamps in 1896).


Stamp 3: Refer to note after SG 775 Scott 400
From Scott Catalog:
In 1947 a decree authorized the use of 5c and 10c revenue stamps of the above type
[ed: stamp 3] for franking correspondence. Other denominations were used unofficially.

Stamp 4: SG 143 Scott 115
It is not a moire pattern.

Hope this helps.

Jerry B

Added Scott catalog numbers
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Edited by jbcev80 - 09/04/2011 04:53 am
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Posted 09/04/2011   03:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cursus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For me, the 1st is a normal, uprated stamp.
No idea about the 2nd.
The 3rd, is a revenue (that is what "fiscal" means in Spanish) stamp, seemingly used by post.
The 4th is a 1870's Venezuela revenue stamp to support schools (as "escuelas" means in Spanish). There are many issues from 1870 up to the early decades of XXth cent. They were also postally used, mainly in 1873/1879.
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Posted 09/04/2011   04:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add timbres667 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rod + jbcev80 + cursus
extremely delighted
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Edited by timbres667 - 09/04/2011 04:09 am
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Posted 09/04/2011   04:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


Thanks, how good do we have it on SCF ? :)

A few points, and observations.........

1. The first was opt so long after, who would have thought
that's how I missed it.

2. The second, and your response once again, had me running
for my older SG specialised (why didn't I do that in the first place? )

I had this down as SG481, and I think I shall remain with this number Jerry, I think (going by the full lips of Bolivar and the
neck of the tunic is a redrawn issue of 1924)

My SGSOTW (stan gibbons stamps of the world) does not list
and variance of these issues, so i'll add brackets with (redrawn)
in my database. My old gibbons does not address any punched examples.

3. I see Gibbons note on my stamp being an unauthorised postal use.

4. I thought the opt wasn't a moire anti theft device,
but that was what it looked like from the edge.

This is the "type 31" overprint of that stamp, as cursus explained



Thanks all, once again, sometimes we need a "prod" to get
thinking another way


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Posted 09/04/2011   07:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
G'Day Rodney,

Regarding stamp 2.

In my 1980 SG Part20 number 481 is a 2b chocolate stamp issued July 1, 1937. You probably meant 381.

To accurately determine if it is a re-print, or re-engraved, measure the perfs (better than subjective colors). If it is perf 12 then it is not a reprint, or re-engraved, stamp. The reprints are perf 12.

Looking at the illustrations in Blanco, it seems you are right in it being a SG381 I went by Scott colors: dull olive green compared to olive green. One reason to use the perfs to determine which one.

Jerry B
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Edited by jbcev80 - 09/04/2011 07:55 am
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Posted 09/04/2011   09:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In my 1980 SG Part20 number 481 is a 2b chocolate stamp issued July 1, 1937. You probably meant 381.


You are correct, thanks Jerry.


Quote:
The reprints are perf 12.


You are correct again, however I believe mine to be re-drawn
(1924) which would make the perf P14

Reprints are 1925-1928 and that value changes to brown from
yellowish olive.

I'll drag out the trusty perf guage.
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Posted 09/04/2011   09:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Mud in the eye, Perf 12 it was

Well done you.

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Posted 09/04/2011   09:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rodney

OK perf 12 is an original. Therefore SG 365 Scott 274.

The difference between a perf 12ish stamp and a perf 14 is very noticeable by eye (12 and 12 is definitely perf gauge time). I guess my 4am eyes were not all that bad You have been looking at cinderellas too long.

By the way did you get the Arms table?

Jerry B
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Edited by jbcev80 - 09/04/2011 10:00 am
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Posted 09/04/2011   10:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jerry,
I have to ascribe SG381, my concise does not list a SG365

Arms table? where may that be hiding Jerry.

(BTW I have HUGE gaps in that set)
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Posted 09/04/2011   10:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rodney

How old is your SG catalog? In my 1989 Part20 the illustration number is 47. Under 1915-23 are the listings. My SG381 is a 15c brown-olive and is perf 12.

SG 365  15c olive-green (8.15) perf 12
SG 365a 15c deep olive  (9.22) perf 12

I e-mailed the arms table to you yesterday to the pookie address. If you changed e-mail address please send me the new one through SCF e-mail. SCF doesn't allow e-mailing attachements. Bummer.

Jerry B
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Posted 09/04/2011   11:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have the SG simplified edition 2005
and 1965 SG specialised

The 2005 just shows the single issue SG381

I'll email you my new address.
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Posted 09/04/2011   11:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rodney,

That explains what is going on. There is definitely a difference in the catalogs. In the Part20 the illustration 47 SG numbers are:

1915 - 1923
  362-372  Various frames perf 12

1924 - 1928  redrawn
  373 - 378 perf 14  (1924)
  379 - 389 perf 12 (1926 - 1928)

1932 - 1938 redrawn and printed on paper with greyish
       blue surface imprint (Winchester Security Paper)
  414 - 425 perf 12

1939 redrawn and printed on plain white paper
     with colors changed
  369 - 574  perf 12

I now understand why you may have trouble indentifying South American issues.

Jerry B
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Posted 09/04/2011   11:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For the record,
another punched issue:
(not mine)

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Posted 09/05/2011   02:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbcev80 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rodney,

The stamp is from the Escuelas revenue stamps (School Tax).

It seems to be SG319, however Gibbons and Minkus both describe the color as vermilion and Michel as red orange. It doesn't look vermilion or red orange to me. The Blanco catalog describes the color as carmine red (rojo-carmin) which, to me, is the color of the depicted stamp.

Issued: July 1904
Engraved by American Banknote Company
Perf 12
Sg 319       25c vermilion
Minkus R124  25c vermilion
Michel 92    25c red orange
Blanco 110   25c carmine red

Definitely there is no consensus as to the color. However, since Blanco is a specialized Venezuela catalog I would accept carmine red.

Jerry B
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Edited by jbcev80 - 09/05/2011 02:56 am
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Posted 09/05/2011   03:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would have gone Lake-Red,
Red is a confusing colour,
from a kid, I always expected red to be "scarlet"
but Gibbons red can be on the dark side to a point
where it looks a dirty brown.
The stamp in question may also be toned.

I am wondering if these punches may be telegram sourced.
We shall find out one day, I expect.

The source of the stamp named it as "unlisted"
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