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Scott 1056 Losing Eyesite Trying To Determine Hole Size

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United States
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Posted 04/05/2012   2:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add eaglebub7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all,

Been away for a while on a lil vacation now back to reality and cataloging. I know this will likely be difficult for the forum to answer but what I am trying to figure out here from the title is if the holes size is small or large. I am using the US Specialty multi-guage to check but it is still difficult to know for sure if the below is small hole perf. I am place a piece of bright white paper donw on my desk, then laying the guage over the paper. When I lay the stamp over the small holes, I do no see any white anywhere around the openings. Visually they look small but, I have about 75 more various joint line pairs from this series, some holes visually look large, but when placed on the guage in the same manner, they show up small. Is there something else I can do short of sending them out to confirm?

Thanks again in advance!

eagle

Geeesch, apparently I was gone long enough to post this in wrong section...wonder if an OP could move or should I delete.

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Edited by eaglebub7 - 04/05/2012 3:46 pm

Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/05/2012   3:45 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like the catalogue says that the small hole stamps only exist bureau precanceled...
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Posted 04/05/2012   3:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add eaglebub7 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks sinclair, I too saw that in the catalog. If I'm using the gauge to check hole size from behind as described, should I not be able to see white paper showing through.
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Posted 04/05/2012   4:06 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, you should. I can't explain that. My 2010 catalogue shows examples of the large and small hole stamps in pairs. Yours is pretty clearly the large hole.
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Rest in Peace
Canada
6750 Posts
Posted 04/05/2012   4:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Puzzler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not sure about hole size and all, but I find when I scan a stamp at a good enough resolution, it shows up really easily on screen, for me to see properly that is.

Could there be a way to compare a known small / large hole size template to a scanned stamp? Use a previous scan of the template (at the same resolution of course) to move it over the holes on the screen?

White against white seems to me to be very hard to see mo matter what, or am I missing something here?
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Posted 04/05/2012   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add eaglebub7 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't believe you can clearly see the actual hole size from the scan. I have been looking through all my joint line pairs to see if I can find just 1 of them with a different size so I can compare. Puzzler, the gauge I am using is clear with solid black holes, the paper is on my desk, the gauge is on top of it the paper as you see it, I then place the stamp on top and try to see white peeking through. hope this helps

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Posted 04/05/2012   6:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tomiseksj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My 2011 Scott Specialized says that "While both are perf. 10 the later holes are smaller than the paper between them."

The below manipulation of the image you posted seems to indicate that the holes and paper between them on your pair are about the same size, making it the large hole variety.

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Posted 04/05/2012   7:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add khj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I concur, you have the large hole variety. When you have a small hole pair next to a large hole pair, the size difference should be quite noticeable without any additional visual aids. So you shouldn't have to measure every single one of your pairs. There should be a picture in the Scott US Specialized catalog showing a large-hole pair next to a small-hole pair.

It's the small hole singles that are difficult to notice without some visual manipulation (e.g., Tomiseksj's excellent example) or a gauge.
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Posted 04/05/2012   8:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add eaglebub7 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks all, I like the idea of placing the two next to each other, will give that a try when I get back home.
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Posted 04/05/2012   8:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Russ to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The problem is that the terms small hole and large hole are qualitative. Several years ago I measured several pairs with a thin film optical system and have some quantitative data.
Small hole is P10-.07822/.03465 or perf 10 with .07822 inch (1.9868mm) spacing with a .03468 inch (.881mm) perforated hole diameter
Large hole is P10-.07822/.04016
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Bedrock Of The Community
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Posted 04/05/2012   10:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wt1 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As luck would have it, an eBay seller has a listing for a precanceled small hole variety line pair of this stamp. I copied it next to your example and resized the images together, which allows you to readily see the difference between the large hole and small hole varieties:

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Posted 04/05/2012   10:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add khj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When comparing the 2 different hole-size varieties, I do recommend that you examine the pairs face-down so that you don't have to worry about your eyes playing tricks on you.

k
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Posted 04/06/2012   10:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add youpiao to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
When comparing the 2 different hole-size varieties, I do recommend that you examine the pairs face-down so that you don't have to worry about your eyes playing tricks on you.

k


For that matter, even when just doing a standard perf gauge measurement, I find it much easier on the eyes to measure from the back side.

Tedski
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Posted 04/06/2020   1:38 pm  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Russ wrote: "The problem is that the terms small hole and large hole are qualitative. Several years ago I measured several pairs with a thin film optical system and have some quantitative data.
Small hole is P10-.07822/.03465 or perf 10 with .07822 inch (1.9868mm) spacing with a .03468 inch (.881mm) perforated hole diameter.
Large hole is P10-.07822/.04016

0.03465" above may correspond to Rosback 0.0345" hole diameter width X 3/4" length pins from Rosback Pony perforator.
0.04016" above may correspond to Rosback 0.0400" hole diameter width X 3/4" length pins from Rosback stroke perforator.

Due to the above, there is the possibility that Rosback sized perforator pins may have been used by the BEP on some Stickney rotary press coil bar perforators.
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Edited by jogil - 04/07/2020 10:01 am
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Posted 04/06/2020   5:38 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The quick and dirty way to check is to examine the hole in the direction of the row with a 10 or 15 power loupe with a reticule. The diameter of the hole (at the smallest point, since holes are oval) will be < 1 mm if small and > 1 mm if large. The width of paper between holes is larger than the hole if small and smaller if large.

No time to discuss this now, but the measurements reported above are not consistent with those used by expertizers.

Measuring hole size for earlier wet printing coils is a bit more problematic. The standard pin size was about 0.043" for Stickney coil stamps. Larger pins, about 046", mentioned in the specifications, were used initially on 449, 450, 489 and possibly other coils. Smaller pins seem to have been used from time to time, perhaps because standard pins were not available. Rotary press sheet stamp bar perforator pins were initially the same size but may have been reduced later to about 0.040" to reduce separation. No one has written about this yet.
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Edited by cfrphoto - 04/06/2020 5:40 pm
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Posted 04/07/2020   08:47 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Rosback stroke perforator had perforating pins with around 0.040" diameters.
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