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GB : Penny Red ID Instruction Please.

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Posted 08/01/2012   06:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add rod222 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Newbie starting to ID my penny reds.
Have 2012 SG catalogue.
Any sage advice on how to approach ID please,
what do I look for first, and then how to work through it?

Example, imperf penny red, very blue paper, but not "ivory head"

small queen watermark


Lost my postmark catalogue for the moment, so cannot use this
for help, but looks like the early oblong barred.


Catalogue in front of me..more evidence of ageing
vertical barred postmark not evidenced at all


Looks like die 1 although mouth semi hidden,
this may be obvious for this issue stamp.

Looks like alphabet 1, the "B" is small,
but the "Q" looks large

Being "Q" is row 17?

That's it for what I can offer, can anyone help to ID
and how they do it please?

Thanks






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Edited by rod222 - 08/01/2012 06:28 am

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Posted 08/01/2012   07:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampvirgin to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wish I could help, having the same issues myself. Perhaps I can learn a lesson here as well.
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Posted 08/01/2012   08:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good!

I have nutted out the Postmark,
it is a 12 bar Type 120 postmark from Scotland
Bars are horizontal.
(If it was numeral 163 it would be the Ilona Steamer )

by the curve it looks like a possible 2 or a 3


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Posted 08/01/2012   08:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add irishjack to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is my to go to site for Reds
http://www.useless.connectfree.co.u...pennyred.htm
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Posted 08/01/2012   09:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Thanks IJ,
there probably was links throughout SCF
but there was so much on early GB
I shirked looking through numerous threads

Aprreciate the link, looks good.
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Posted 08/01/2012   09:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I had posted this on another forum. You might find it useful.
C.
================================

Let's see if we can't get you started in figuring out what you have when you're looking at a penny red. Start with a basic question:

1- Does it have perforations?

If no (like yours), it's going to be SG catalog numbers 7-12. To narrow this down, you'll have to know a bit about how to plate the imperforate penny reds (no plate numbers are on any of the issued imperforates).

You can narrow the range of possible plates down in this way:
1a- Does it have a Maltese Cross cancellation?

- If yes, it's most likely from a plate from 1-40
- If no, it most likely from a plate from about 38-177
For the plates between 1 and 40, there are a few SG numbers - those stamps printed from the plates that printed penny blacks (1-11) are SG 7 (also referred to as (Specialized Catalog Number A2).

If it was from plates 12-40, it is one of SG 8-12 (but most likely SG8) (Specialized Catalog Number B1)

Now, moving on to the numeral-cancelled stamps (which yours is), we can look at the size and shape of the letters to put them into two batches - those printed with letters that were made with the first letter punch set - Alphabet 1 - and those made from the second letter punch set - Alphabet 2.
Alphabet 1 letters are found on plates 12-131 (still SG 8-12, but most likely SG8, and also referred to as Specialized number B1). Those printed with Alphabet 2 letters (plates 132-177) are also SG 8-12, but the Specialized numbering scheme differentiates the alphabets and calls these B2's. As a rule, the comparable letters from Alphabet 2 are larger than those from Alphabet 1 (the "G" is pretty close in both alphabets). Your stamp appears to have Alphabet 1 letters.

To further differentiate between SG8, 9, 10, and 11, you have to look at the colors. SG8 is red-brown; SG8a is on very blued paper; SG9 is pale red-brown; SG10 is deep red-brown; SG11 is lake-red (very rare); and SG12 is orange brown. Virtually everyone just calls the bulk of the stamps in this batch "SG8" unless there is a really good reason to think it's one of the others.

There are various ways to further narrow down individual stamps and match them to the plate that originally printed them. This has to do with looking at the position of the letters within the lower corner boxes, other marks that may have resulted from the plate making process, gaps in the lines around the stars at the top corners, remnants of guide lines, doubled letters, etc. Plating is about 50% science and 50% art and trying to teach how to all but the most obvious of the plates without a reference library available is beyond the scope of this note.

Now, moving on to the perforated reds:
There are many different varieties of these. I've chosen to just ignore the perforated reds in my collection (my choice). However, let me hit the high points:

2 - are there "stars" in the top corners, or letters?

If "stars," they'll fall in the range of catalog numbers SG 16-42 (Specialized numbers CE1-3 and C1-13). These are differentiated by the die used to print the profile (dies 1 and 2 were used for these issues), alphabet punch sets (1, 2, and a new set, 3, were used for these issues), perforation, paper, watermark, and color.

3 - If there are letters in all four corners, the stamps are SG 43-53 (Specialized category "G"). These are the stamps that have the plate numbers within the turnings at the sides of the Queen's head.

If you want a quick run down of the different stamps I'm talking about here (and relative values), you might want to check out the specialized price list put out by someone like Arthur Ryan. (http://www.gbstamps.co.uk ). If you select his "stamp price list" link, then choose "Queen Victoria stamps." There, you'll see a list of all of the stamps with the SG number, the Scott number, and a brief description of the stamp.

Hope that helps get you started.
Chip
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Edited by chipg - 08/01/2012 5:09 pm
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Posted 08/01/2012   8:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Marvelous stuff there Chip,
thank you very much indeed.

Going by the loss of definition and blurry type print
I am thinking perhaps a very worn plate, rather
than abuse met in the collection process.
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Edited by rod222 - 08/01/2012 8:02 pm
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Posted 08/01/2012   8:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jkjblue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rod222

I did a fairly thorough review of the Penny Reds in May on my blog.

http://bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.co...archive.html

May or may not be useful for you.

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Posted 08/01/2012   8:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Jkj,

Your first halfpenny blue QV shown,
bears the postmark of the Newspaper Branch Cancellations,
Halfpenny Book Post.

Can't help myself The postmark personalises the stamp.

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Posted 08/01/2012   8:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jkjblue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Your first halfpenny blue QV shown,
bears the postmark of the Newspaper Branch Cancellations,
Halfpenny Book Post.


Wow the depth of knowledge of this group, and Rod222 in particular is amazing.

Thanks for the interesting postmark factoid.
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Posted 08/01/2012   8:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey! I have to show off,
I just received my (The late) W G Stitt Dibden
"Newspaper Branch Cancellations" from Bill Barrell in the UK

He did the hard Yakka, I just passed it on

Don't you just love catalogues still in first hand?
so cool,
Thanks Mr. Stitt Dibden, and the postal history society Surrey.


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Edited by rod222 - 08/01/2012 9:05 pm
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Posted 08/02/2012   08:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Going by the loss of definition and blurry type print I am thinking perhaps a very worn plate, rather than abuse met in the collection process


Plate wear usually shows up in the area above the words "One Penny." While the top left may be the result of plate wear, it also could just be a bit underinked or rubbed. Here's a couple of worn plate examples:

Plate 9


Plate 61
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Edited by chipg - 08/02/2012 08:14 am
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Posted 08/09/2012   09:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

In an amazing example of "Late Use"

A Penny red (plate 23) was cancelled March 21st 1906

64 years after it was printed.
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Posted 12/10/2019   05:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thread Bump. Last Post 2012.

Beginning plating all my Penny Reds.
FREE Gift from SCF member Bobby delaRue Thank you !


Is going to take months, feels like 300+ stamps ?
Plate 77 is there just for design reference.. Not my image.
Query: Why does Gibbons end plate number values at 165


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Edited by rod222 - 12/10/2019 05:14 am
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Posted 12/10/2019   06:15 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Which catalogue are you using? My SG doesn't end prices at plate 165.
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Posted 12/10/2019   4:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rod,

Glad they arrived safe and sound. Lots of fun for you I hope!

The QB stamp you posted in 2012 is plate 69.

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