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Difference Between Large And Small Block Tag

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Posted 06/22/2014   11:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add acanalizo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Would someone give an explanation(images would be great) of the differences between a large and a small block tagged, i.e Scott 1597a, 1844a, 1856a under UV lighting(United States)? I understand when the entire surface of a stamp is covered by taggant and the stamp glows uniformly under SW, this is termed overall tagging.When only a portion of the stamp is covered by a small square of taggant, the stamp is called block tagged. However, block tagging is known in two sizes, small and b]large[/b],depending on the size of the block of tagging. Only images I could find below:



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Edited by acanalizo - 06/22/2014 11:17 am

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Posted 06/22/2014   12:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Acanalizo, I have no pictures. I have not yet been able to photograph tagging successfully! But maybe you have some of the two varieties in your collection. If you collect coils, and specifically Plate Number Coils, there are a few good examples.
The best one is the 20 cent Flag over Supreme Court ( Scott 1895 & 1895a ). It has wide ( large ) block tagging on plates 1, 2, 3, 5, 11, 13 & 14. Narrow ( small ) block tagging is found on plates 4, 6, 8, 9, 10 & 12. On all of these the top to bottom distance of the tagging is the same, just the width changes. Therefor in my opinion "wide" and "narrow" are better terms.
Another coil that comes with both types of tagging is the 25 cent Honeybee, Scott 2281 & 2281f. Both plates 1 & 2 come with both wide and narrow tagging.
Hope this helps?

Peter
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Posted 06/22/2014   12:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
An interesting question, one which I have often asked myself. I have no certain answer although I do have an opinion or two.
It seems to me that the difference between small & large block tagging varies with the issue being examined ... perhaps "smaller" & "larger" would be more accurate descriptions. For many issues in which only one tagging block size is known, the tagging may simply be listed as "block tagging". Or, if there is only one type of tagging for an issue, it is simply listed as tagged with no description of the type. While I wish that Scott would always indicate the type of tagging, I can understand the need for some degree of brevity, especially where further details are not required for identification.
I have two specific examples of block tagging that I believe are germane to this discussion. The first is Scott 2175, the 10c Red Cloud of 1987. This stamp is listed in Scott as having large block tagging. I have seen some variance in the size of the tagging block on Red Clouds ... enough so that one could think that there might be two different block sizes. But the difference was apparently not significant enough for Scott to recognize two varieties ... or perhaps the "smaller" tagging was seen as the result of worn tagging mats. In any case, only "large block tagging" is recognized for Red Cloud.
The second example (Scott 2281/2281f from 1988) is listed in Scott with both small & large block tagging. While I don't remember where, I do recall reading an article that indicated that these were not as easily identified as one would think. In fact, I think it intimated that this could, in some cases, actually be quite difficult. Measuring the relative sizes of the tagging blocks was apparently not always sufficient for an id. Perhaps someone else will remember the article & where it appeared. I remember thinking at the time that I probably needed to revisit my 2281 & 2281f strips with this article in hand. Unfortunately, the moment to do so passed & I forgot about it ... until now.
The point of these examples is that the line between "small" & "large" block tagging may be neither distinct nor straight.
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Posted 06/22/2014   1:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The difference between the wide and narrow block tagging is very easy to see, especially as far as the width is concerned. I have measured the "gap", the untagged area between stamps. On the wide tagging it is about 2 mm. On the narrow tagging it is more like 5 mm.
I did my measurements on both the 22 cent Flag over Capitol and the 25 cent Honeybee.
I also tried to measure the height of the tagging, but it seems to fluctuate quite a lot. Maybe due to the wearing out of the mat?

Peter
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Posted 06/22/2014   1:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Peter, like you I measured the untagged gap in a strip of Honeybees in order to determine the type of tagging. The gap on the presumably "small" block tagging strip is at least twice that of the "large". Will do a bit of searching for the article I read. Think it appeared sometime within the past 3 years.
... John ...
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Posted 06/22/2014   1:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I Brake For Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Does Scott even differentiate between "wide" and "narrow" block tagging in the catalog for any issue? All I ever see is Tagged or Untagged in the top description, or "untagged" within the description if it's an error. But I don't have modern stamps past 1988.


-IBFS
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Posted 06/22/2014   2:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
IBFS: There are two issues that I am aware of where Scott uses WIDE or NARROW to describe the tagging. The first is the Flag over Supreme Court issue of 1981 ... Scott 1895 (wide block tagging) and 1895a (narrow block tagging). The second is the Flag over Capitol Dome issue of 1985 ... Scott 2115 (wide block tagging), 2115a (narrow block tagging) & 2115b (wide & tall block tagging). For the 2115 varieties, Scott lists the size of the block in mm.
But I do believe Peter's use of wide/narrow in reference to the Honeybee coil makes more sense than Scott's large/small.
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Edited by JLLebbert - 06/22/2014 2:04 pm
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Posted 06/22/2014   3:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add acanalizo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank everyone for the excellent input. Since am not sure of what singles I have in my Scott National Album and I will somehow obtain those with PNCs of 1597(large BT),1597a(small BT),1844(small BT),1844d(small BT), 1853(small BT),1853a (large BT),1856 (small BT),1856a(large BT), 1895(wide BT),1895a(narrow BT),1896(small BT),1896d(large BT), 2115(wide BT),2115a(narrow BT),2115b(wide & tall BT),2177(large BT), 2281(small BT), 2281f(large BT)- Peter,I had not thought of the PNC5 on the coils -from there I can determine what singles I have and what I am lacking- the PNC5 would seem to be the best mistake-free(?) way of getting a sample of each. The non coils w/ plate numbers will be harder. I will try the measurements you suggested on a couple. JLL,I will also check my 2175(large BT) for an example of a large block tag. After I obtain everything, I will try to get an image of each with my hand held computer UV microscope and if successful, post. In the past it has given good UV images. Thank everyone again for setting me in the right direction.
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Albert
Edited by acanalizo - 06/23/2014 06:59 am
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Posted 06/22/2014   3:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There's also one interesting commemorative with large & small block tagging. The 18c Alcoholism stamp from 1981 ... Scott 1927 (large BT) and 1927c (small BT). The small block tagging version was not recognized in Scott until over 20 years after the initial issuage. Neither version is particulary scarce although I have been told that 1927c is less common.
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Posted 06/22/2014   10:54 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some of the Great American defins issues also come with both large and small block tagging.

Two things to be aware of - they used the tagging mats a long time and some of them show evidence of wear which results in a smaller tagged area and there are also cases of excessive tagging that resulted in bleeding so the tagged area was larger - bottom line is you need to have examples where the block is square or nearly so rather than irregular so you know the block is as it was supposed to be.
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Edited by eyeonwall - 06/22/2014 10:54 pm
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Posted 06/23/2014   12:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
some pictures I just took, the bee. nothing better to do atm just playing around. reading/learning etc.





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Posted 06/23/2014   01:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
few more pictures - practicing the tagging photography on the stamps mentioned in this thread- hope it is what your talking about if not forgive me please, ty.





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Posted 06/23/2014   03:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add acanalizo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great images Larry. The 1st picture(group one) is of variations of Scott 2281(Bee).Would the Bee example on left be a small BT(2281) and the example on right be a large BT(2281f)? What would the middle example be? On the 2nd set of Bee images, would the small BT be on left & large BT be on right? On the 3rd set of Bee images, would the right & left be considered large BT and the center be a small BT? In the 2nd group of images you posted of variations Scott1895(20c Flag)which come wide BT & narrow BT, would the image on right be considered a narrow BT and the middle be a wide BT -what is the far left? The next group of images, Scott 1844(1c Dix)would the left & center images be small BT and the right be a large BT? If so, the image on the right could be mistaken for a small BT if you didn't have the left & center images.The last group of your images of Scott 1856(14c Lewis) would the first 3 images on left be considered small BT & the far right be large BT? It seems to me in many cases, if not most, it could be hard to tell between a large BT & a small BT single stamp variation without having the other to compare; or better to be sure, as Peter suggested earlier, having a PNC or plate block of the stamp as a reference - only then one could be sure what BT a single stamp is.
Larry,could you explain how you were able to produce the above images you posted, i.e what method you used? Thanks.
Albert
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Albert
Edited by acanalizo - 06/23/2014 03:55 am
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Posted 06/23/2014   05:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LarryBruce to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
i used the uv light I bought on eBay-runs on the 4aa batteries has short/long wave uv lights.

dark room, uv light one hand, camera other hand, camera shot over top of light. Short wave.

low light reduce blur shoot without flash sony digital camera dsc-h10 cybershot 8.1 mega pixels.

i tried to find some blocks for you but only had singles of the numbers mentioned in this thread found some others to look at, dunno if it is what we are talking about but the pictures are somwhat ok.

as far as size big,small or whatever I couldn't say what scott wants for their catalog description I wonder what companys like mystic stamp come up with for those (a.) tagged numbers. if it covers the whole stamp I would guess large, if it has borders of non tagged stamp it would be a good guess small, don't quote me, maybe it is written someplace, I hope it is not like vermilion where we have to guess the color, humm no two zoos are alike hey, ha, lol,,,







if you give more usa scott numbers I will see if I have them to take a picture and post here.
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Edited by LarryBruce - 06/23/2014 06:18 am
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Posted 06/23/2014   06:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add I_Love_Stamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! A great thread to enjoy a bit of the Pink Floyd! Neat images.
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Posted 06/23/2014   07:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add acanalizo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Careful, a little known fact: a "pink floyd" is actually a reference in British slang for a man's genitals. HaHa!
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Albert
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