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French Government Printer, Multicoloured Engraved Stamps  
 

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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
531 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Papy24 - Could you have a look at http://www.wikitimbres.fr/timbres/7...ancaise-1951 , please? Four colours are listed: bleu-noir, lie-de-vin, vert et orange.

Do you think this could be the very first real camaieu? (The example in my collection does not show any trace of the green but my copy of the 1960 edition of Yvert et Tellier catalogue does mention the four colours as above, which I had found surprising, so I checked with wikitimbres.) Thank you.

By the way, my 1971 Stanley Gibbons Stamps of the World (originally Simplified) mentions four colours for the 1941 France d'Outremer stamp as well: green, purple, blue and mauve. So various catalogues can be differentiating!


What AnthonyUK and you showed of the 1960 MS 760 Paris air stamp did surprise me. I never imagined there were so many colour varieties.
Mine is the third one shown by Anthony (in my earlier 'used' collection).

This forum has become really illuminating.
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Edited by florian - 12/20/2014 04:52 am
Valued Member
France
69 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   09:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Florian,

I don't believe this is a "camaieu". In fact this is no green. It is not a good wiping.
The wiping cylinder brings up the dark-blue ink on the place of orange ink and makes green, it is not willingly.

I think that the first "camaieu" is "1959 Floralies parisiennes 15 F". And it is the only french one.

Catalogs wrote that but didn't know, and also for many others. Sometimes they are wrong.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
531 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   10:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Papy24.

As always, you can explain things clearly, giving reasons that would never have crossed a mere amateur's mind. I do appreciate your explanation of the origin of the green in the Saint Nicolas stamp. I do now have a much better understanding of what had once baffled me.

I had quoted the green twice for the 1941 France d'Outremer stamp. The second one should have been 'mauve'. Just an example of what a viewer can read into a stamp he is examining, of course.
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Edited by florian - 12/20/2014 04:49 am
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
585 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   11:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Also the prices have been decreased dramatically according to Michel. Should we believe that FDC's are still worth investing in???

Now is the time to start collecting all these beauties..... Almost freeware!
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   1:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Glenn,

That's great, so Michel has corrected it.

Any chance to check for me the listings for the
following French Art stamps were Michel (Europa 1968) states they are
Komb. StTdr. und RaTdr (combination print engraved & photogravure)

Michel France

1415 - 1417
1426 - 1427
1452 - 1453
1466
1474
1478
1492
1513
1523
1529
1541
1552
1559
1564
1567
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   1:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Now is the time to start collecting all these beauties..... Almost freeware!



Rein, you are absolutely right about that.
Figuring in inflation some of these beautiful French Art stamps
are now available for way less than the face value when issued.

Pity that I'm nearing the end of my collecting years and
even though it's tempting for me to buy some it doesn't
make any sense.
The wife will probably sell all my stuff at a garage sale after
I kick the bucket.

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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
1361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   1:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AnthonyUK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
On a related note, for those with an interest, the current edition of Stamp Magazine (UK) has an illustrated feature on engravings by Pierre Gandon.


An interesting point that I wasn't aware of is that the Sarah Bernhardt stamp was actually the work of Gandon.

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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   2:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Anthony that is odd about the Sarah Bernhardt,for instance why was it
attributed to Mazelin when it was Gandon who deigned and engraved the
stamp?

Do you have this issue of Stamp Magazine, if so what
does it say about that?

Here is a link to an excellent French website which you might
be aware of anyway.
http://www.phil-ouest.com/Timbre.ph...rnhardt_1945

It shows what appears to be one plate proof in green signed
by Gandon and the same one but in brown, signed by Mazelin.
I cant read French and I dont think those internet translations are
any good therefore I don't know what it says.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   3:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Anthony, here is my only copy of France Scott C38




For comparison your "normal" copy on top and
mine on the bottom.
Colour wise very similar except your scan is much sharper.

I remember you saying years ago that you have
a Epson 4490 Photo same as mine.

Is that what you used for this scan?

I usually scan at 1200 dpi, what about you?

My Epson is now about 6 years old and still works alright but
I believe the lamp is not as bright as before and there are
some fogged up areas on the underside of the glass.
I'm tempted to try and remove the glass and clean it but
I'm not sure how to go about it.
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Edited by lithograving - 03/22/2018 9:24 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
1361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   4:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add AnthonyUK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
The reason given for not allowing Gandon to be atrributed as the engraver was that he had engraved a stamp for the Vichey government and so was 'out of favour' once the regime fell.

I still use the Epson scanner but haven't done for some time. I'm hoping to have some space soon to do some scanning as I have recently bought nearly full sets of Faroe, Greenland and Sweden which I'd like to scan. I guess you have seen JJ's database site. This is the type of resourse I mentioned in the engravers thread and he contacted me asking to use my images which I did.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/19/2014   5:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Anthony regarding Gandon having to do penance for awhile.

I recall something similar happening with the Austrian engraver
Ferdinand Lorber after WWII.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
254 Posts
Posted 12/20/2014   04:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving: Michel currently states the same for all the stamps that you queried, i.e.:
1415 - 1417 StTdr
1426 - 1427 StTdr
1452 - 1453 StTdr
1466 StTdr
1474 StTdr

1478 Bdr.(NOT an art stamp)
I assume that you meant to type art stamp 1487 which is StTdr

1492 StTdr
1513 StTdr
1523 StTdr
1529 StTdr
1541 StTdr
1552 StTdr
1559 StTdr
1564 StTdr
1567 StTdr
GLENN
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
531 Posts
Posted 12/20/2014   04:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Now I see: If you open ´Documents´ in wikitimbres, you can see the actual inks used for the 1951 Saint Nicolas stamp: bleu-noir; rouge-bordeaux; jaune. No green as some catalogues report and Papy24 confirms.
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Edited by florian - 12/20/2014 04:48 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4361 Posts
Posted 12/20/2014   4:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Glenn,

So Michel at some time in the past has
corrected that information.
Yes it should have been # 1487.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
531 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   04:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bonjour, Papy24,

There is one point concerning rotary intaglio printing that arouses my interest.

While Mr. Vondrich in his detailed exposition of stamp printing on WIFAG machines mentions "chromium-plated steel intaglio impression cylinders", the French Chambon presses are reported to use chromium-plated copper-covered intaglio impression cylinders (la virole recouverte de cuivre et chromée).

I have always liked the gentle rendering of engraved lines in stamps of French provenance, moreover often incised by their own designers, an aspect in which the French products are very different from the Czech ones (where only Jiri Svengsbir used to engrave his own designs besides Josef Hercik who also used to engrave coats of arms in his particular styling).

I am inclined to ascribe the special appeal of Chambon-printed stamps to the layer of copper covering the intaglio impression cylinders which make this effect possible.

What do you think?
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Edited by florian - 01/10/2015 04:45 am
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