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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   5:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add lithograving to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Papy24, wrote this on another thread:


Quote:
Now printing cylinders are engraved by a diamond needle directed by computer.
Now, engraving is flat, without thickness. It's a pity.



When I read this I realized we hadn't discussed here the effects
that computers have had on the art of engraving.

Do we still need engravers?

Here is a pic I borrowed from one of Kirk's posts.



Jorge Peral sits at the computer engraving the $10 whale stamp.
No soft steel die or burin anywhere in sight.
No engraving the image in reverse.

Here are the results.

Canada Scott 2405 2010



They were issued in panes of 2



Not a bad looking stamp but nothing special about
the engraving.
How much credit to Jorge and how much to the computer?


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Edited by lithograving - 03/25/2018 12:41 pm

Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   6:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Papy24, can you show us some scans of these
post 2005 computer engraved French stamps?
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Moderator
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United States
4578 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   6:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kirks to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a pair of those whales on my desk -- I look at them all the time

Kirk
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Kirk,

I used mine for postage after I scanned them.
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Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
Canada
5690 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   7:30 pm  Show Profile Check BeeSee's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BeeSee to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That whale stamp never fails to amaze me when I see it. Great scan as usual Litho.
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BeeSee in BC
"The Postmark is Mightier than the Stamp"
http://brcstamps.com ---- BNAPS, RPSC, APS
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/10/2015   8:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks BC.
The only copy I have is this used one on cover.
I asked the recipient in Austria to send it back to me but
I wish I hadn't also included those 34 year old
stamps which kind of screws it up as far as Postal History
goes.
But the stamps did their job and the letter actually
flew over the big pond twice.

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Edited by lithograving - 03/25/2018 12:42 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
253 Posts
Posted 01/11/2015   06:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving: You ask whether hand engravers are still required. Absolutely, but the problem is, will there be anyone capable of doing the work in the coming years, and will companies be willing to use these expensive craftsmen.

In 1991 De La Rue employed 15 of the 50/60 capable banknote engravers worldwide. This compares with the year 1817 when there were 10,000 engravers in Britain alone who were capable of engraving a Bank of England bank note. So it is not just stamps that are suffering from a lack of hand-engraved work.

Computerised engraving is "OK", but the output lacks the subtle depths achievable when using burin on steel. If computers can eventually perfect that aspect, then the craftsman will no longer have a place in the process, I fear. GLENN
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Valued Member
France
69 Posts
Posted 01/12/2015   09:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

I can show you those stamps :







They are printed in TD6, (intaglio 6 colors) and it seems to me that is in offset/litho.

I don't like.

Papy24
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
585 Posts
Posted 01/12/2015   10:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
TD 6 = 3 direct plus 3 indirect recess whereas each 3 comes from ONE plate using the Lambert-Giori-process. No offset-litho involved...
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Valued Member
France
69 Posts
Posted 01/12/2015   10:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, I badly explain. I know very well that is TD6 printing 3 + 3 colors, but it is the Chambon process.
I know it is not offset/litho printing, but for me it seems like offset/litho.

Papy24
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
528 Posts
Posted 01/12/2015   11:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Papy24 - I cannot but agree. What a pity.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/12/2015   4:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes,those French ones do look flat, dull, nothing outstanding,
just a lot of colour.

Phila@post might as well have printed them offset, would have been cheaper and looked the same.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1591 Posts
Posted 01/16/2015   9:42 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Computerised engraving is "OK", but the output lacks the subtle depths achievable when using burin on steel. If computers can eventually perfect that aspect, then the craftsman will no longer have a place in the process, I fear."

Its not the computer, it is the people writing the software that traslates what the designer istrying to design and controls the engraving.
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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
2937 Posts
Posted 01/17/2015   04:04 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The French stamps are particilarly disappointing, given the beauty of past French issues. From the Post Office's point of view, I accept that these are simply labels, but wouldn't they be relatively easy to fake for purposes of postal forgery?
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Valued Member
France
69 Posts
Posted 01/17/2015   10:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Papy24 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello,

You are right all.

It seems that Phil@poste would be able to buy a new engraving system with a new software to obtain an engraving like before with the transfer roll, and only with a numeric picture of the die, or why not a numeric drawing.
Engravers can to be worried.

Papy24
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4351 Posts
Posted 01/17/2015   12:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but wouldn't they be relatively easy to fake for purposes of postal forgery?


Since they are engraved they would still be harder or near
impossible for these modern forgers to reproduce.
They usually fake the most common definitives
such as the Machins and here in Canada P(ermanent) stamps
which can be used indefinitely and makes it very financially
attractive for these crooks.

Some are so good that even a collector would have
difficulty in telling the fake from the genuine.
So how would the general public or a postal clerk or
a letter carrier know the difference, or care ?


Forgeries to defraud the post office are nowadays nearly
always printed via offset/litho by these gangs who produce
tens of thousands of these fakes.
But I'm sure it would be quite easy for someone
to run off a few thousand on a plain inkjet or laser printer



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