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Tonal intaglio printing  
 

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Pillar Of The Community

Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/23/2015   06:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Message










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Pillar Of The Community
United States
5585 Posts
Posted 02/23/2015   08:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting writeup on the process. Is this still in use?
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 02/23/2015   2:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have no idea as I do not specifically collect Japan!

But I remember that about 20 years ago I received a letter from a Japanese expert telling me about the process and sending me some stamps! I will see that I find these stamps again somehow and then I will show them here...
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 02/23/2015   4:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting pamphlet Rein thanks for showing it.

I had never heard of this Sammel printing before.
But when it states that Sammel printing (multicolor printing with one pass) is impossible
for gravure, though it is very easy for intaglio.
it sounds like
like the Giori process just another name.

Similar to post war Japanese industrialist conveniently grabbing
European and American patents for cameras, watches, cars etc.



I found this quote below funny I suppose due to translation from Japanese to English


Quote:
Both intaglio effect with high grace and dignity and photographic continuous tone of gravure can be expressed in one plate.


So here though is a difference in having two different print
methods, recess engraving and photogravure, on one plate and therefore on one pass through the press.

Makes one wonder what kind of ink they used since
engraving ink is opaque and dense in comparison with
regular printing ink.

Hopefully someone here can show some sharp scans of these stamps
so we can see what this is all about.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts
Posted 02/24/2015   03:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
TONAL ENGRAVING
I have an example of the tonal engraving in the form of a dummy stamp, attached (dragon in clouds). The scan quality could be better and if I find the item will rescan and post, but have not traced it this morning. A second design is of the moon landing, and a third is of a boy, but I do not own these examples, but have scans, also attached.










These items are from / attached to promotional folders issued by the Ministry of Finance Printing Bureau. GLENN
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts
Posted 02/24/2015   03:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
SAMMELDRUCK
Firstly, picture 2 on page 51 of the Espana 84 book: Is it just me, or are the two captions not the wrong way round!

There is a Patent for this process that is available to read/download at http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US3980018 and it includes the above image, but uncaptioned. You will see that the Patent, issued in the USA, is actually a Ministry of Finance Printing Bureau invention from 1971.

The Abstract states: "An intaglio printing process utilizing a printing plate consisting of a precise engraving element which is adapted from a gravure printing plate. This printing plate is applied on the plate cylinder and printed with very stiff and viscous ink as used for engraving intaglio printing. Ink of various colors may be applied separately on different portions of the gravure plate surface by rollers. After inking, surplus ink can be wiped off by a wiping roller. Printing paper is introduced between the plate cylinder and impression cylinder for printing."

With gravure and intaglio cells and lines being on the same plate, this is a fairly understandable progression, for we all should be aware that gravure is an intaglio process.

I monitor the output of world printers and I have no reason to believe that this process was used elsewhere or, indeed, even in Japan after a few early issues. GLENN



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Edited by 65170 - 02/24/2015 03:58 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 02/25/2015   7:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Glenn for that info and the link for the patent.

I agree that in the diagram on page 51 the translator
got his cells mixed up with his lines.

Still would like to see an actual issued stamp
where I could get a closer look at the process.

How many Japanese stamps were issued using this method
I wonder?


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Valued Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts
Posted 02/26/2015   02:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lithograving: I do not collect Japanese stamps, so am unaware of precisely what might have been issued using this process. I suspect not many. I entered "Japan stamps tonal engraving" into Google and found....

"1 November 1971, Japan Government Printing Works Centenary. ‘Ryu-ko zu (Dragon and Tiger)' 1895 by Hashimoto Gah#333; ( 1835-1908 ) tonal-engraving. These stamps, a set of two, were issued to celebrate 100 years of stamp and banknote printing. So, they are naturally representative of what they can do best for this kind of process. Surely they took time to do the details of the waves. I have to look up what ‘tonal engraving' could be – if I magnify, it seems the tone is made by lines and dots together. Paper as well, seems a little special for this printing."

The wording for the above issue is from the website and included scans, attached. If you download the enlarged portion and view, the lines and dots are quite clear.

"JAPANESE THEATRE SERIES POSTAGE STAMPS (III) "BUNRAKU"
Date of issue: 01 March 1972 - the 50 yen "Awa-no-naruto" stamp (of three - the other two are gravure only) is tonal engraving, dry offset."

"JAPANESE THEATRE SERIES POSTAGE STAMPS (IV) "NOH"
Date of issue: 20 September 1972 - the 20 yen "Tamura" stamp (of three - the other two are gravure only) is tonal engraving."

There are no other mentions of tonal engraving in relation to stamps online, so maybe this is all of the issues. The date ties-up with when the invention was patented. Hope this helps. GLENN





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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 03/19/2015   08:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Glenn,

so far I have 3 stamps that go with what we know already about the tonal engraving - they are mentioned in the España book!

All seem to have only ONE cylinder that was inked by several [3?] ink rollers!

The first two stamps do not have a very fine resolution, but the third one does have a rather fine one!






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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 03/19/2015   08:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply





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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 03/19/2015   08:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply





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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
567 Posts
Posted 04/03/2015   6:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I found my old correspondence of 1993....




He at least mentions several Michel catalogue numbers!
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 04/03/2015   7:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rein, Thanks for posting this info.


Quote:
He at least mentions several Michel catalogue numbers!


Now we need someone who has the Michel and the Scott
section for Japan.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
237 Posts
Posted 04/04/2015   04:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 65170 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have the Michel Japan cat.....

Kyokoshuki Engraving (Ky-StTdr):
Mi288-291 = 1940. 2600 jahre Japanisches Kaiserreich. StTdr
Mi300-301 = 1940. 50 jahre Kaiserliches Edikt ubdre die Erziehung. StTdr
Mi312-315 = 1942. Jahrestag der Grundung von Mandschukuo. StTdr und RaTdr
Mi657 = 1956. Nationalpark Saikai. The 10yen value only relevant. StTdr und RaTdr

Kyokoshuki Engraving (Ky-StTdr + RaTdr):
Mi927 = 1966. Woche der Philatelie. RaTdr
Mi1357 = 1978. Weltkongress von LIONS International. RaTdr

Kaicho Engraving (Ka+StTDR):
Mi1126-27 = 1971. 100 jahre Staatsdruckerei. StTdr und RaTdr
Mi1143 = 1972. Japanische Theater III. StTdr und RaTdr + dry offset. The only relevant stamp from the set.
Mi1176 = 1973. Erhaltung des Takamatsu-zuka-Grabes. StTdr und RaTdr + dry offset. The only relevant stamp from the set.

The above information is from Michel and I make no guarantees as to its accuracy re process stated in the catalogue. GLENN
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Edited by 65170 - 04/04/2015 04:58 am
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 04/04/2015   3:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Glenn.

I wish I had these stamps to see exactly what makes
this type of printing "special".

Also what is meant by Dry-Offset?
as in


Quote:
Mi1143 = 1972. Japanische Theater III. StTdr und RaTdr + dry offset.


So they were a combination print of engraving (StTdr) and
photogravure (RaTdr) plus dry offset.

Wow. I'm surprised they had no gold foil.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
4124 Posts
Posted 04/04/2015   10:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The only stamp I have from Glenn's list is this
one.
It was issued 5 years before the Tonal Intaglios
came out but IMO the print texture looks different
compared to the photogravure stamps issued in the mid sixties
by lets say Courvoisier or Harrison&Sons who
IMO were the two top photogravure printers.

Kyokoshuki Engraving (Ky-StTdr + RaTdr):
Mi927 = 1966. Woche der Philatelie. RaTdr

Scott 879 Photogravure and Engraved as per catalog.



It appears to me as strictly photogravure printing without
any recess engraving combination.
No sign of any raised ink, no indentations or impressions
on the back just smooth shiny paper.
The hair lines do appear very fine similar to engraving but
not quite.
I would call it quasi-engraving.


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