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Institute For Analytical Philately

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Posted 03/25/2015   3:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add ikeyPikey to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The Institute for Analytical Philately is rarely mentioned here on SCF, and I would like to take this opportunity to raise their profile a bit.

http://analyticalphilately.org/

http://analyticalphilately.org/wp-c...ober2014.pdf current newsletter

When we discuss 'moving our hobby into the 21st Century', we mostly discuss internet tools, Killer Apps, and the like.

How about we add some hard science?

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey

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Posted 03/25/2015   3:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Tim H to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Unusually, I am at an almost complete loss for words. XRF analysis of inks is impressive stuff. Should be fine for fingerprinting the organic compounds. Good forensics. I am intrigued about how they determined the exact number of Labuan inverted frames. Sadly we aren't let into that secret. My 10x hand lens hangs it's inadequate head in shame.
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Posted 03/25/2015   4:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My 10x hand lens hangs it's inadequate head in shame.


LOL
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Posted 03/25/2015   9:43 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
xrf onlty tells you what elements are present, not their chemistry (how they are joined/arranged into what compounds), so not that useful for organics
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Posted 03/26/2015   02:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Tim H to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oops. Unbridgeable gap between brain and fingers. I know XRF is in organics but sometimes the neurons just aren't at their sharpest.
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Posted 03/26/2015   09:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Organics do not live by carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen alone.

For example, XRF of indigo might show those two nitrogens clearly enough to distinguish one blue dye from another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_dye

Emphasis on the 'might'.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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Posted 03/26/2015   9:55 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm afraid you don't understand how XRF works/what it tells you.
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Posted 03/26/2015   10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ikey, I had never heard of this organization. Thank you for bringing attention to it.
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Posted 03/26/2015   11:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... XRF of indigo might show those two nitrogens clearly enough to distinguish one blue dye from another ...



Quote:
... I'm afraid you don't understand how XRF works/what it tells you ...



Quote:
... the intensity of each characteristic radiation is directly related to the amount of each element in the material ...
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Posted 03/27/2015   12:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great stuff Ikey. And it's in WMU!! Go Broncos!
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Posted 03/27/2015   9:12 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
but amount does not translate into how the atoms in the compound are arranged and in organics, you can have the same elements arranged differently and it makes a completely different compound, which can have a completely different color.
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Posted 03/28/2015   10:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ikeyPikey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, which is why I wrote:


Quote:
... XRF of indigo might show those two nitrogens clearly enough to distinguish one blue dye from another ...


To expand that thought, the 2-nitrogen signal is different than the 0-nitrogen signal, the 1-nitrogen signal, the 3-nitrogen signal, the 4-nitrogen signal ... thus, perhaps, allow you to reliably distinguish 2-nitrogen indigo from blue dyes with 0-1-3-4-etc nitrogens.

The real limitation on XRF-for-philately, as it is for so many things, is sample preparation.

For example, how to separate the ink/dye from the paper fibers, or to reliably subtract the XRF signal of the paper fibers so as to only be looking at the XRF signal of the ink/dye?

The easiest design-around would be to look for an element that is only present in the ink/dye, and would 'never' (sic) be present in the paper fiber; an example of that might be a heavy metal which, if more prevalent in one ink/dye than another, and blessedly rare in paper, would allow you to reliably distinguish one ink/dye from another.

Sadly, as you would quickly learn, preparations of inks/dyes were not deliciously precise; boiling leaves or insects or animal bits (professionally known as a water extraction) was supplemented & refined as time went on, but a 19th century bottle of indigo is not going to be a late 20th century bottle of reagent grade indigo.

Great puzzles to be solved well before you get to solving the philatelic puzzles.

Cheers,

/s/ ikeyPikey
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Posted 06/21/2018   6:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bumping this up as the 2020 symposium has been announced with the following call for papers.

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Posted 06/21/2018   7:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Cool!
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Posted 06/21/2018   10:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I can definitely say that there are some very talented people behind this, and they have done some very impressive work so far.
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Posted 06/22/2018   03:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Analytical chemistry and physics in laboratories have NOTHING to do with Philately. Should they apply it to paintings they wouldn't be able to tell an Karel Appel from a Willem de Kooning!!!
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