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Need Advice On 1945 Austrian Anti-Nazi Cover.

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Valued Member
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Posted 08/21/2015   7:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Khedive to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all the opinions, I purchased this with the assumption it was fake, yet still want to get it expertised. I'd like to use the combination of bogus 1945 item plus certificate as a teaching tool in my class for history majors (which examines the falsification of history). Thus my original question stands, who is best to issue a certificate on this, an Austrian or German expert?
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Posted 08/21/2015   8:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I do not quite understand why you insist that it could or might be a fake. There is nothing fake about this cover,stamp collectors all over the world still make this sort of thing! It may be called philatelic make work, but it is for real. Anyway, if you like another opinion, try the APS, at www.stamps.org

Peter
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Posted 08/21/2015   9:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Khedive, do I understand correctly that you want an expert to declare the cover a contrivance?
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Posted 08/21/2015   9:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
book, I looked more closely and I was certainly wrong about all the overprinted stamps having Dutsches Reich obliterated. However, I understand that there was one official issuance of stamps with vertical bars which obliterated Hitler's face. (Note: I don't mean here the vertical lines which made part of the vertical overprint of Österreich.
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Posted 08/21/2015   9:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Khedive, if you are insistent on sending this cover to Germany, you will need to communicate in the German language and agree to the Bund philatelistischer Pruefer (German expertizers') terms, by which they are honor bound. This means that they will indelibly mark the item with a small imprint made with a steel stamp if you submit it for expertization.

The expertizer for Austria is Juergen Baersch, with whom I have not dealt. All of the German expertizers have slightly different financial terms - how you pay them. You will need to find this out for yourself.

To learn more about the German expertizers, you can google "Bund philatelistischer Pruefer"' or "https://www.bpp.de/"

I am not familiar with any Austrian expertizers' group.

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Posted 08/21/2015   10:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
KGB, there are a number of different national (Oesterreich/Austria) overprints on the Hitler heads, including vertical bars which completely cover the design. There are also genuine local overprints which are mostly the country name "Oesterreich" typeset or hand stamped across the design. The genuinely used of all of these are, of course, tough to find.

The obliterations of Hitler's face are local issues of various German towns. These are mostly crude cork or rubber stamp overprints, and it is an area rife with forgeries, as you would expect. No Germany specialist would, or should buy any of this without the expertizer's stamp on the back.

Here are some Austrian locals. The block is from Losenstein, and the "Austria again free 5.5.45" stamps are from Mondsee.



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Edited by bookbndrbob - 08/21/2015 11:06 pm
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Posted 08/21/2015   11:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
book, quite interesting. Are those all from the Soviet occupied areas? (Or -- for the most part from Soviet occupied areas?
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Posted 08/22/2015   12:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
KGB, both of these towns are in Oberoesterreich (Upper Austria). Most of Upper Austria was in the American zone of occupation. Mondsee was well within the American zone, and Losenstein is close to the border of Lower Austria, which was occupied by the Soviets.
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Posted 08/22/2015   12:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hieronymus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actually Hitler killed himself on April 30,1945 so the
May 1, 1945 postmark has no relevance to that fact.


If this is a manufactured, fake cover rather than an actual postally used cover, the May 1 fake postmark is exactly what a not-too-bright faker would use. Hitler died April 30, so I'll just make the postmark May 1 to create the association.

On the other hand, if this is, as someone suggested above, a kind of analogue to a FDC, with the Abgegangen "postmark" not intended to be "real" but rather a kind of cachet, then putting May 1 on it makes sense. It would have been impossible for a post-office to have canceled a stamp with "Abgegangen" on May 1 when Hitler's suicide took place only a day later, but on 14 June, when the genuine stamp was canceled, one could by that time look back and create a cachet for Hitler's "departure" with a May 1 date.

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Edited by Hieronymus - 08/22/2015 12:44 am
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Posted 08/22/2015   12:49 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TheArtfulHinger to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Futsches Reich" propaganda forgeries wouldn't have been conveniently laying around in post offices in 1945, either. This was definitely made sometime well after the war ended - the earliest possible date being whenever the earliest "Futsches Reich" forgeries (of the original forgery*) came into existence. The piece may not have even been created with an intent to deceive anyone - it could have been a collector creating a fantasy cover for his own enjoyment. Even though it never went through the mail, it's still fun to look at.

*The original Futsches Reich wasn't technically a forgery because it wasn't intended to look exactly like the original stamp - the skull and spelling are obviously different. They're probably more accurately described as Cinderellas, but they, along with several other issues created by intelligence agencies on both sides, are usually collectively referred to as propaganda forgeries, which is the context I was using.
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Posted 08/22/2015   11:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Art, you make a good point, though "technically" one might call the originals forgeries as they were designed to be delivered by the German postal authorities (who presumably were tired of looking closely at Hitler's visage.)

Personally, I would have dropped bombs instead of letters, but it takes all kinds...

book, thanks for all the info!

P.S. The original Allied forgers were not that bright, apparently. One of the return addresses used in Operation Conflake featured a misspelling, which alerted the Germans to something fishy.
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Edited by KGB - 08/22/2015 11:42 am
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Posted 08/24/2015   4:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lithograving to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I asked on an Austrian stamp forum what they thought
about this cover.
So far a couple of members have opined that
the WIEN 62 cancel looks suspect and the
ABGEGANGEN cancel is bogus.

The member Wilma's specialty is Austrian covers,postmarks
and postal rates therefore I value her opinion.


See here The Briefmarken - Forum

http://www.briefmarken-forum.com/t6...f-echt#48975
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Posted 08/24/2015   10:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TheArtfulHinger to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Futsches Reich stamps were part of Operation Cornflakes. A short version of Operation Cornflakes can be seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cornflakes

A much longer, thorough, and more interesting history of Operation Cornflakes can be seen here: http://www.psywarrior.com/Cornflakes2.html
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Posted 08/28/2015   2:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Khedive to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks gents (and to the Austrian lady), it will travel on to Germany.
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