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Ukraine 20.000 On 7k Russian Surcharged (1919?)

 
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Pillar Of The Community

Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
1080 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   2:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add filipo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Any idea in which part of the catalog I can find this piece? Or that is a bogus issue? Thank you in advance :)

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Pillar Of The Community
1515 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   2:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny2U to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's actually 10,000 on 7K. Look in Ukraine, 1917.
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Pillar Of The Community
Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
1080 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   2:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add filipo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, 2 was a type error instead of 1.

So, this is it...

27) A14 / 10k on 7k light blue ??

"k" after 10 is abb. for the kilo (thousand) than? Or I have missed something?
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Pillar Of The Community
1515 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   3:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jenny2U to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, K is the abbreviation for 1,000 or kilo.

The stamp is part of a set known as the General Wrangel issue. Here's a set of 15 from a Ukranian seller who describes them as cinderellas.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Russia-1921...em4af06b86b8
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Pillar Of The Community
Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
1080 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   3:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add filipo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you!
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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
2973 Posts
Posted 09/17/2015   7:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi filipo,

These are fun issues but can be a little confusing.

As Jenny2U says this is known as a Wrangel issue, supposedly issued for use in refugee camps outside Russia (I believe mostly in Turkey and Greece) for soldiers from General Wrangel's army in South Russia after it was forced to evacuate the Crimea following defeats by the Red Army.

While the trident overprint was used to convert a Russian imperial stamp for use in Ukraine, with the added Wrangel surcharge it is no longer a Ukrainian issue and it is not Scott Ukraine #27 10k on 7k.

Ukraine Scott #27 is an Imperial Russian 10 kopek on 7 kopek surcharge overprinted with the Ukrainian trident (but no Wrangel surcharge). "k" in the Scott listing does not mean 1,000.

Instead, Scott lists this stamp as #325 under Russian Offices in the Turkish Empire.
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Nigel
Pillar Of The Community
Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
1080 Posts
Posted 09/18/2015   5:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add filipo to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Nigelc!

Thank you for the help. Of course, I have heard for the General Wrangler issues a many times before, but I really cannot remember all that surcharges and overprints, especially when they in such a "crazy" colours (at least for me, because I am partially colour blind)... however, black "Ukrainian" sign is easy detectable, and the red surcharges are hard to read (for me)... so, that leaded me in the wrong direction.

However, when Jenny2U has mentioned Wrangler, I knew that I need to look under letter "W" in the Scott's index, and I have found this stamp listed there. So many issues... so many overprints... so many colours of the overprints... so many values... I will forget all of them very soon :)

Thanks again for the help and your extended observation on the issue!
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Australia
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Posted 06/20/2020   6:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sc#321 1921
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
4770 Posts
Posted 06/20/2020   7:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod on your copy --Stamp is from Odessa.Overprint of the trident is a little large to be a original, most likely a after the fact overprint .I would need to check it out to be sure .
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Edited by floortrader - 06/20/2020 7:06 pm
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Australia
29760 Posts
Posted 06/20/2020   10:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you floortrader,
I have no Odessa Opts.
I was looking at the trident, and the first time I notice, one wing is in front of the body, the other behind.
I will not be surprised if it is a counterfeit.

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Valued Member
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United States
435 Posts
Posted 06/21/2020   11:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
P. Clark Souers book, Forgeries of Common Stamps after World War I: Eastern Front, Balkans, Caucasus, Version 2 has a very nice and useful section on stamps of Ukraine. Lots of examples of genuine and fake trident overprints.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2656 Posts
Posted 06/21/2020   12:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Odessa tridents come in different types.Odessa I (double lined)has that characteristic.
http://postww1stampforgeries.org/ukraine/
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Australia
29760 Posts
Posted 06/21/2020   6:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Great Link Perf12, Thank you.
Best overall brief history of Ukraine I have read.
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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
2973 Posts
Posted 06/21/2020   7:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't collect the trident issues but I find this old Gregory Pos catalogue to be a useful reference:

It's a small catalogue of 64 pages with listings and images for all the various types listed in SG, Michel etc. but also many other local issues that I've never seen elsewhere.

For the basic Odessa I type in Rod's image (i.e. without the Refugees' Post surcharge) it identifies five sub-types.


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Nigel
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