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2 Cent Gr Stamped Envelope Double Impression Or Kiss Print?

 
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Posted 11/22/2015   6:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add 3193zd to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The second imprint is raised about a third up. You can see the impression on the front in the green field. Also there is a straight line impression in the face. It can be seen clearly on the back image.



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Posted 11/24/2015   6:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First, I would like to say, IMHO, the straight line artifact (that is most visible on the reverse image scan) is not related to the ghost image on the front. I have examined dozens of these ghost images and I've not seen this straight line (nor curvy line, nor whatever).

As for the ghost image - this is an EFO attribute I've wondered about for years. Glad to see someone else is paying attention to these guys.

This envelope was printed by letterpress, so the green field is a flat surface where the ink is applied. The white field is where the die image is sunk. When they come together, you get a green printed image with a physically-raised embossed image.

In the ghost image the ghost letters (and other features) are darker green than the surrounding green field. Just the opposite of a regular stamp.

Try this scenario: the envelope represented by the cut square (let's call it envelope A) gets an embossed stamp in the normal manner, but the blank is not ejected properly and another envelope blank (let's call it envelope B) is fed in on top of envelope A, which has moved forward just a bit. Envelope B gets a normal impression, but because envelope A is underneath, the pressure of the green field of envelope B causes some fresh ink from envelope A to be imparted onto the back of envelope B (which we can't see, as it usually doesn't get saved along with envelope A). The sunk engraved image of envelope B does not impart as much pressure on envelope A and thus less ink is offset onto the back of envelope B.

It would be neat to find a pair of an envelope A together with an envelope B. I'd love to see the back of envelope B.

Unless someone else has a theory on the straight line artifact, I will assume it was created by some unconnected parallel process.
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Edited by ThomasGalloway - 11/24/2015 7:00 pm
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Posted 11/24/2015   8:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 3193zd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your input! So your theory...If I understand you, is my cut corner had some of its ink transferred to the back of another envelope and thats how the 2nd ghost impression got there?
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Posted 11/25/2015   06:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That was my theory. It sure sounded good, but I'm having some post partum issues. My concern is the lack of embossing for the ghost image. My scenario would have resulted in some embossing from envelope B's strike.

I think we have to go back to the drawing board.

The key observation that the ghost image is a reverse image is still central to the eventual explanation, I'm quite sure.

Got to figure out how the ink got removed from the white areas to form that ghost image. And in the process, no ink was imparted to the raised embossing of your cut square. This would seem to point to the ghost image being made prior to your cut square's strike.

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Posted 11/25/2015   08:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add smauggie to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
After staring at the ghost image, it seems as if it was caused by applying a white-ish substance to the surface of the envelope. That is why the parts that would normally be raised are darker because the white stuff did not stick to that part of the die. Could it be some sort of grease or lubricant material that was found in excess on the die?

Edit: The other possibility is that the substance was some sort of ink fixer that would make the ink indelible that would not normally be noticed if it was placed correctly on the stamp?
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APS Member #: 222539 AAPE, Maplewood Stamp Club (MN), Northern Philatelic Society, US Philatelic Classics Society, Auxiliary Markings Club, Canal Zone Study Group, Minnesota Postal History Society
Edited by smauggie - 11/25/2015 08:39 am
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Posted 11/26/2015   09:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We need an example on blue paper to test smauggie's theory. In the posted scan, smauggie's white substance doesn't show up on Washington's bust. On blue paper it should.

In the mean time, I continue to look for new theories.
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Posted 10/24/2020   12:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add HoosRec to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You guys were discussing a ghost image a few years ago. If you are all still here, I've got another example of a 2c Washington (Scott U311) cut square with a partial indicium ghost image.

I had sold this cut square several days ago, having listed it as a "partial double impression." That was the obvious EFO aspect of the cut square. As I was preparing to produce a close-up image of the "double impression" portion of the indicium, I suddenly realized this cut square also had a partial ghost image. You can see the arc of the inner ribbon line just above Washington's head. The inner teeth below that are less obvious. The outer ribbon line arcs through the ED of UNITED and STAT of STATES. The letters S, T and A of STATES are discernible as well.

Being curious, I discovered your discussion of this characteristic and thought I'd share my find. I have also included the initial close-up I created of the "double impression." At least that is what I have been calling it. That may not be the proper terminology. I don't understand the printing process and am wondering if the two characteristics are related.

The second cut square has a virtually identical "partial double impression," but no ghost image that I can detect. How is it possible that two nearly identical impressions would be created?

I'm not a collector, but have been studying this indicium ever since I inherited many thousands of these cut squares 20 years ago. I have since been working to share information I've learned along the way and to sell the fancy cancels and other interesting items from the hoard. It has been a fun retirement project.

I am curious and look forward to your comments.

Tom








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Posted 10/26/2020   10:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Tom,

Welcome back to Die 88 land! Good choice for a retirement project. I hope it gives you as much satisfaction as I get from it.

The ghost image artifact still bugs me, but I haven't seen a dead-on explanation for it. I will add to the analysis that this EFO attribute is seen on other envelope issues, not just Die 88. I've seen it on other 19th century envelopes, but can't say that I can remember seeing it on 20th century issues.

I'm of the opinion that the doubling one sees in "TAGE CENTS" is the result of re-entry work by the engravers; possibly using partial hob dies.

More partial thoughts: I've come across several dozen of these and they all appear almost exclusively on the right hand side of the the image.

If it was a true double impression, I can't see how you wouldn't see doubling for the whole indicium?

The two scans you show above are two nice die varieties. I hope to get you to donate copies of the scans for my Die 88 census. :-)

Thomas
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Posted 10/26/2020   11:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another partial bit to add to the analysis:

The ghost image in your scan shows shifting of a different amount as compared to the OP's scan. So, we're not seeing the result of some fixed mechanical cause.
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Posted 11/05/2020   12:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add HoosRec to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thomas, It has been a while. I will need to find my notes for processing images for the Die 88 project, but will get these prepped someday soon.

In the meantime, I just discovered I have two more of these that I had scanned nearly four years ago. I've scanned a few hundred mostly Die 88s in recent years and am having trouble keeping track of all of them—even though they're all on stock pages in a single binder.

I had never done anything with these re-discovered scans, but will get them uploaded to this discussion ASAP. This pair has the same machine cancel and they're on creamy white paper. Probably from the same post office if not the same mailer. That's not uncommon, given that I've got many thousands of cut squares and stamps that were all collected in a single small city over, generally, a three-year period.

Tom
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Posted 11/05/2020   01:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Couldn't the first image be caused by two successive wrong and right embossing operations, followed by a single inking? That would cause ink landing on the first, wrong embossed locations to appear darker in color, akin to watermarking.
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Posted 11/11/2020   06:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Could you please explain "right embossing" and "wrong embossing"?
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Posted 11/22/2020   11:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add HoosRec to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As I stated in my original post, I am not a collector. I once collected pre-1940 colonial Africa and Caribbean, but never US. Then, I inherited Dad's collectibles that contained this bizarre hoard of 1890s cut squares and off-paper stamps. All were apparently collected in Union City, Indiana, near where I grew up. They were sorted and bundled tightly, 100 to a bundle, with string and sewing thread. Many of the stamps had been packed tightly into vintage Clark sewing thread boxes. There were between 11,000 and 12,000 cut squares alone, mostly Die 88s.

Dad found the hoard along with some local postal history, but had stopped collecting stamps by then and left it to me to deal with a few decades later. This was my introduction to postal stationery, geometric/fancy cancels and postal history generally. I joined the Indiana Postal History Society back then, received a great deal of help from members and wrote articles for their newsletter. They, of course, were particularly intrigued by the Indiana postal history that accompanied the hoard.

I still do not collect, but have enjoyed researching and writing about this Union City hoard, as well as scanning and preparing individual items to sell. That process led to my learning about the Die 88 Study project. That project offered an opportunity to share publicly some of the EFO characteristics I was finding in the hoard.

I had found this next pair of partial double impressions a few years ago. I scanned them at the time and then placed them on stock pages in a binder with a few hundred other cut square scans. Although they were labeled, I lost track of this pair as I continued to scan more of the Die 88s in subsequent years. I recently rediscovered these and have just prepared JPGs to share here in hopes they will contribute to your understanding of this partial double impression phenomenon. I am looking forward to following your discussion of this topic.

Tom







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