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Gradually larger sized "dies" in recess prinitng?!?!?!

 
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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
664 Posts
Posted 03/31/2016   2:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Fragment of the first plates:



Fragment of the later plates:




Look at the "T"!
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Edited by Galeoptix - 03/31/2016 2:28 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
664 Posts
Posted 03/31/2016   2:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
But what this thread is about is not whether the 15zl had two different master dies! To me it is clear it has!

The problem is how can there be a change in size - an enlargement of the design - after transfer from a "master die" into a new "master die"????
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United States
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Posted 03/31/2016   3:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Assuming that the same master die is used in both cases, it seems that there are only 2 possible explanations. Either there is a shrinkage occurring in the hardening process of the printing plate, or there is a shrinkage occurring in the drying process of the stamp paper. It seems more likely that this is a stamp paper issue.

If paper shrinkage is the answer, then the stamp with the smaller printed area is stamp with the paper "problem".
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Edited by bookbndrbob - 03/31/2016 4:43 pm
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Czech Republic
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Posted 04/01/2016   02:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Galeoptix - Rein, "usunięto" (passive adjectival participle in neuter form of the perfective verb "usunąć" expresses subjectless past tense, formed as the past participle but with the ending -o (usunięto = "there was - actually were - lost / removed / taken out / deleted / eliminated / erased / some lines ....").

Please note the additions in my previous post ( http://goscf.com/t/48681#420422 ).
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Edited by florian - 04/01/2016 03:09 am
Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
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Posted 04/01/2016   02:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Galeoptix and bookbndrbob - This is what came across my mind as I got up this morning:

What might have accounted for the vertical lengthening of the printed area of stamps printed by certain cylinders could have been a change from planographic printing to rotary printing where the printed area of stamps lengthens slightly as the printing plate is being curved.

Paper shrinkage would come into consideration with sheetfed presses where the direction of grain in sheets could change. Then the printed area is either vertically longer and horizontally narrower or vertically shorter and horizontally wider.

But I must say I do not know about printing plate shrinkage in the hardening process.

The question is what printing presses were used for printing the stamps in that particular period.
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Edited by florian - 04/01/2016 03:23 am
Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
563 Posts
Posted 04/01/2016   04:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am very sorry, Rein. Concentrating on the engraving itself I did not pay enough attention to your table of dimensions yesterday. Spaced properly and the dimensions in colour for better evidence, this is what it looks like:

- 15zl type I 21.3 x 27.3mm 21.08.1950 smaller variety
- 15zl type II 21.8 x 27.7mm xx.xx.1950 larger variety as to both dimensions

- 45gr type I 22.0 x 27.8mm 08.01.1951 smaller variety
- 45gr type II 22.3 x 28.1mm xx.10.1951 larger variety as to both dimensions

- 75gr 22.3 x 28.1mm 15.06.1951 large-size stamps as the preceding
- 1zl15 22.3 x 28.1mm 15.06.1951 ditto
- 1zl20 22.3 x 28.1mm 15.06.1951 ditto

The four different gradually increasing sizes of the intaglio printed area are indeed a puzzle. The change from planographic printing to rotary printing I was considering is out of the question. Could this have been a matter of shrinkage of (four!) different paper qualities or of various shrinkages occurring in the hardening process of the respective printing plates as bookbndrbob suggested? This definitely does not look like paper shrinkage due to the the direction of grain in sheets on sheetfed presses I had in mind. Very intriguing, indeed. I do apologize.

A most remarkable insight on your part!

Nevertheless I am still inclined to believe the stamps originated from one and the same master die retouched for corrections.
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Edited by florian - 04/01/2016 05:27 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 04/01/2016   09:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Florian,

Sorry for not making a proper table! How do you do so in this Forum???

The design size gets larger everytime a new - supposedly - die was made! Paper does not play a role, all stamps were printed on a reel-fed Goebel-press, the 75c also on the WIFAG!

Tadeusz Nowy suggests that the size of the design in the transfer roll is slightly bigger than that of the original master die and that when you make a new "master die" from the transfer roll the new die may be even larger...

Where I do not agree with Tadeusz is that both types of the 15zl have a common denominator! Whereas you tend to agree with Tadeusz!

In his very interesting main article on Recess printing - all in Polish - he also refers to the Peace Conference in 1950: 3 stamps - a 15zl that was non-emis and later overpinted 45gr; a 40gr and a 45gr.

I will show these 3 stamps shortly!
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Netherlands
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Posted 04/01/2016   09:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 15zl - non-emis - overprinted:

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Netherlands
664 Posts
Posted 04/01/2016   09:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 45gr:

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Netherlands
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Posted 04/01/2016   09:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 15zl - non-emis - overprinted + the 45gr:



The design size has changed!
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Netherlands
664 Posts
Posted 04/01/2016   09:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not only the 45gr but also a 40gr got issued!

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Netherlands
664 Posts
Posted 04/01/2016   10:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
According to the new Handbook the 45gr has two types:




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Posted 04/01/2016   10:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Type I


Type II:


Not just the "R" has changed! Have a good look at the serifs of the "N" and the G"!

Apart from that the "OWY" is well-known for having re-entries!
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Posted 04/01/2016   11:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The engravers in the PWPW should have had so many stamps to engrave in thst period! Why bother about these minor details???

And let's supposed that the 40gr and 45gr originate from the SAME master die in which ONLY the value should have been different?!?!?!?!





Look at the "T"!
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Netherlands
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Posted 04/01/2016   11:13 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



Note the inner lines following the contours at the 40gr! They are not there for the 45gr!
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