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The Stamps Of Turkey : On Steiner Pages.

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Valued Member
Finland
145 Posts
Posted 11/28/2021   01:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod222,

Thank you for your advice on the paper quality differences and numerals.

So, if the paper is shiny, I assume the stamp is fake. Also, I will need to find the high quality images of genuine stamps and compare numerals for them.
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Posted 11/28/2021   02:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The big problem here, stems from the way these stamps were printed,
I still am getting my head around it.
It is so important, to give rise to relative expectations of final print accuracy.

As far as you last batch, (Postage dues) I find all forgeries (no secret marks) excepting the first, which is a maybe.

Be aware these are not really postage dues, in the normal sense, these stamps were the result of mail being collected from non post office locations, impost paid, and the mail delivered to the nearest Post Office, where currency collected, these stamps were adhered.

There are 4 basic shades of the 5 piastre.

We are dealing with potentially valuable stamps, I take no
responsibility for advice given, I am a student, like everyone else here.

Note : TUGHRA pronounced tura by the Turks

Best practice Philately, where debatable examples arise,
Assume every item is a forgery, unless proven otherwise.
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Edited by rod222 - 11/28/2021 02:17 am
Valued Member
Finland
145 Posts
Posted 11/28/2021   02:47 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I will not hold you responsible of any advice. I will take sole responsibility of any information I pass to the owner of these stamps. I will inform him that these stamps have likely more forgeries than genuine ones and the should be treated as such. Also, only ring attempted to do here is weed out the clear forgeries. Anything not weed out is potential forgery.

Back to the top value. What is the secret mark you mentioned there?
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Posted 11/28/2021   03:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
5 pi secret mark.
The curved ornament top left,
the lower line carries on and crosses both frame lines.

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Edited by rod222 - 11/28/2021 03:46 am
Valued Member
Finland
145 Posts
Posted 11/28/2021   1:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you rod222. Any information on the secret marks of 1 and 2 piaster stamps?
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Posted 11/28/2021   4:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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Posted 11/28/2021   5:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I reflected overnight, why I feel a certain discomfort here,
and I came to the conclusion, it is (for me) Philately takes a sharp
turn from being "fun" to a responsibility.

For me, it is enough to know these stamps are valuable, but I am against spending "risk" money on what may be forgeries.
It is probably why I avoid these, and the Turk "IMPRIMES" stamps.

They are both minefields.

It is important to me to know stamp values, that offers me the starting parameter in which I make offers, and what my budget is.
However, the price never is a consideration for me to what I may "make" out of it by investment, I have donated my entire collection for free.

So, anyway, here is information on the 2 piastre "secret mark" which changes depending on the issue.
and... the difficulty in the print process, and the resultant problems with the print quality, and the subsequent problems with ID accuracy.

Note : "Gurush" "Kurush" "Grish" is a derivitive of the GERMAN "GROSCHEN". (Birkin)

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Edited by rod222 - 11/28/2021 5:23 pm
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United States
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Posted 11/28/2021   7:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These first issues can actually be a lot of fun... The 'postage due' ones (a misnomer as Rod says) are listed by ISFILA in four colors of paper. There were three major printings of the regular postage stamps, with the transparent paper being the first release, but second printed (more on that later), the solid paper released next and the first printing released only when they were running out of stamps just before the 1865 issue was ready. The first printing (2pi and 5pi, not dues) had all the stamps upright on the pane, so the control mark separated the top of one stamp with the bottom of the other. They really wanted to have the control mark at the bottom of each stamp so they put those stamp aside and redid the plates to put each row inverted in relation to the adjacent row. That allowed the control mark to be at the 'bottom' of each stamp. They used those plates to print the 20pa, 1pi, 2pi and 5pi (plus the dues) and all examples can be found as tęte-bęche pairs. The last printing (20pa and 1pi only) was done on thick, opaque paper so the color wash used in the background is really only visible on the front of the stamp, the thin paper versions show that color front and back.
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Edited by billsey - 11/28/2021 7:31 pm
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Posted 11/28/2021   8:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They really wanted to have the control mark at the bottom of each stamp so they put those stamp aside and redid the plates to put each row inverted in relation to the adjacent row. That allowed the control mark to be at the 'bottom' of each stamp.


The tete-beche configuration, as above (Birkin)
Note: the separation lines are only on the horizontal, not the vertical.

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Edited by rod222 - 11/28/2021 8:02 pm
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Posted 11/28/2021   8:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and redid the plates

Confused.
Birkin quotes both "plates" and "stones" are they interchangeable?

Notwithstanding "Plating" refers to both.

Birkin page 17
All lithographic printing processes - whether lithographic or offset printing - are based on the fact that fat and water repel each other. The printing areas must be water-repellent so that they accept the greasy printing ink; the non-printing areas accept water, but no greasy colour. In the lithography process, the drawing is made with a reed pen and lithographic ink on the limestone. The image so drawn can then be duplicated with the help of transfer paper. When dealing with the plating of Tughra marks, one must first understand this printing process (see page 20).
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Finland
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Posted 11/29/2021   11:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. I just finished reading.
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Finland
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Posted 11/29/2021   1:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod222,

In your post it was mentioned that 2 piaster stamps have the secret mark in different locations in different printings. Does it happen with any other stamps of this set?

Also, perf12 said that some of my 5 piaster postage dues are actually the regular stamps. Unfortunately he didn't come back to tell which ones. While I do understand his point, I am not sure which ones should be postage and which postage dues. (Yes, I remember that they are not really postage dues in traditional sense.) Would you like to tell which ones look more like postage (even if they are forgeries)? It would help me to understand better the shades.

When it comes to my own stamps, I would assume quite quickly them to be forgeries if they are stamps with common forgeries. However, as these are not mine, I would like to group them at least to 3 categories: forgeries, genuine and 'hard to say'. I understand that without seeing them in flesh, it is difficult to place anything in the category of genuine, but at least I hope I am able to get them into forgeries and 'hard to say' categories.
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Posted 11/29/2021   7:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Short answer No.

I am posting an image, I use Microsoft Works (circa 1980)
and when I use notepad to post here, I lose formatting
(Grr)
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United States
684 Posts
Posted 11/30/2021   12:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm, I had the understanding that the thick paper was only used on the 20 paras and 1 piastre third printing, yet he is implying all four values could be found with the thick paper. And, yes, I'm using 'plate' and 'stone' interchangeably here. What I'd really like to find for my collection would be a vertical pair of the first printing, any value... :) I believe those are much scarcer than the tęte-bęche pairs (I have a faulty tęte-bęche pair of the 20 paras 2nd printing, just haven't felt like spending the money to get any of the others).
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Finland
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Posted 12/01/2021   5:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kuikka to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rod222,

I was looking what I can find from internet and found this site: https://sariucak.com/articles/the-f...es-of-turkey

The secret mark for 5 piaster is described there slightly differently than what you described it. Here it is described as a dot.




Do you think it is wrong? Any opinion on that description? The reason why I ask it because some of the stamps I had scanned show that mark and I don't think that anyone who attempts to create forgery and is aware of secret marks would do secret mark but would do it intentionally wrong.

However, as I have said: I know practically nothing about these stamps, so I am just asking how do you view that description?
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