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1c 1851 Plate 3 Stamps

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Posted 01/28/2017   2:24 pm  Show Profile Check rlmstamps2012's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add rlmstamps2012 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Thank you Dudley,

Wow! I guess I better keep reading. I do read a lot
but that went right over my head. Now it makes sense.
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Posted 01/28/2017   2:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don,

I hate even taking a certified stamp out of my album to scan it. You want me to float it? You mean just put it in water in a bowl and watch to see what happens? I'm not sure what to look for. You are giving me anxiety. This is the pride of my Scott 7 stamps. It sits in my album in the #7 spot.. I love the cancel. I don't want to hurt it.

LOL

rg
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Posted 01/28/2017   4:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Floating will reveal if there was a repair done.
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Posted 01/28/2017   5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
stallzer,

based on spacing/alignment from Neinken diagram, your strip of 3 ....first stamp high, then goes low, then goes back up significantly. Thus has to be either:

position 2,3,4 left pane of plate 3. (I find no match) or

position 2,3,4 of right pane of plate 2 (12-14R works) or

position 1,2,3 of left pane plate 2 (can't match this either) or

postion 5,6,7 of left pane plate 2 (I have to go back and look)


Closest I've been able to get is 12, 13, 14 R2. My problem is I can't say yes definitively. Neinkens book shows another faint line of color by right side ornaments L/M which I don't see on mine and the Deporto site has a perforated type II with the right side not shown so I can't compare to the one he has shown.

The Doporto site even states for 14R2 "None of the Ashbrook/Neinken plating marks reveal themselves on this copy as they are in the right margin." Neinken's book also shows a kind of dashed line between right side ornaments N&O.
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Posted 01/28/2017   7:33 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rg,

Your stamp is from Plate 1E. The cancel is a Philadelphia marking. I actually think the stamp is creased but that is just what it looks like from here. I think Don would like you to dip it :) Or... just put it in fluid, watermark that is, and see what you can see. I light crease such as what I think is on your stamp won't really show until the last few seconds of drying when the loose and broken paper fibers dry first. If you are reluctant to use fluid, side light would probably work in this case. You could also just enjoy the stamp as it is or want it to be. It is indeed a nice stamp.
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Posted 01/28/2017   7:51 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't really pursue Plate 3 stamps and just sold one on eBay a little while ago. I have one other that is on loan but I actually bought the cover for the semi scarce marking. I still kick myself for not making sure I won an imprint copy on eBay a couple years ago. Anyway, here is the one on the NYC cover. The position has been seen before but is not a platable position as yet.

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Edited by sinclair2010 - 01/28/2017 7:52 pm
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Posted 01/28/2017   8:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sinclair,

I finally got it. My stamp is 25R1E. It should have been easy with the lower guide dot all the way out there. However, I couldn't match it up to Neinken and stamp 25R1E is not on slingshotvenus thing. I matched it by doing a Siegel search for 25R1E. The giveaway was the very, very tight margin between stamp to left, adjacent to ornament A. The adjacent ornament L from 24R1E actually is strange looking but matches perfect. This can be seen from the Siegel search I did for 25R1E.

I put the stamp back in my album for now. That horizontal line in upper right (?crease or repair) is definitely present on PF certificate but barely (BARELY!) seen as the pictures on the certificates are quite poor quality if you ask me. I like the cancel very much. I haven't come across many #7 cancelled this way. Frustrating.
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Posted 01/28/2017   8:34 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wait, listen....

Is that a very faint cry coming from your album.... 'float me...float me!'?

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Posted 01/28/2017   8:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
look at upper right of picture on certificate. Vague horizontal line



signed by "Larry Lyon" (I think)
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Posted 01/29/2017   11:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
SPQR - yes that cover is ex-txstamp. A very nice item.

I consider any plate 3 cover that is also an interesting usage, to be a very nice item. That is a great combination stamp + postal history item -- very much the type of thing I always love to get.

I note that cover is displayed on a certain postal historian's very useful website. I refer to that site often as it has a lot of great information, and eye-candy.
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Posted 01/29/2017   12:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
txstamp - yep. See you at TEXPEX in a few weeks?
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Posted 01/30/2017   11:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
SPQR - I really hope that I can make TEXPEX. There are a lot of people whom I haven't seen in years that will be there. I have a pretty busy life these days, however, and I rarely seem able to plan any leisure time more than a few days out, unfortunately. So I have no idea at the moment.
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Posted 01/30/2017   11:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rgstamp - I'm excited to see the Philadelphia drop '1' blue cancel on your plate 1E stamp. This cancellation has always been one of my favorites on the 1c stamp. It is very scarce, and only known on Plate 1-early stamps. I haven't checked, but my guess is it was a hold-over cancel from the prior rate era (pre July 1851), which was demoted to obliterator-only in July '51, and probably discarded soon after then. If I'm right, and I think I'm at least close, then it would not be possible to find it on a non-Plate 1E stamp.

Consider also, the fact that cancellation collectors, who are looking for nice copies of different interesting cancellations on stamps, prioritize the cancel over the condition of the stamp in many cases. So its not unusual for fancy cancel collections to have plenty of damaged stamps in them. You might not win a Champion of Champions exhibit award with a ton of damaged stamps, but who cares.

I'm sorry that you may (or may not) have overpaid based upon a hidden fault. That happens to everyone sooner or later. Believe me it happened to me numerous times. One tends to get a little smarter each time from events like that. You've got a great stamp, regardless.

I could get even more long-winded on this cancel, and my fondness for it, and the fact that a few years ago, I managed to finally get the well-known cover with three Plate 1E 1c stamps, including 65R1E all with this drop cancel -- but used as an obliterator since it was a 3c rate -- in July of 1851. It is illustrated in Ashbrook Vol II and I think Hubert Skinner wrote it up in either the Chronicle or the 1851 Sesquicentennial Book. He held that cover for years, with much of my drool being imparted onto it while it was in his album.
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Posted 01/30/2017   11:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of nice strips of three were posted earlier in this thread. The top row one is definitely not plate 3, and the earlier one really doesn't look like a plate 3 item either. I'll side with rgstamp and say plate 2 is most likely for that one.

I agree that sinclair's 1c stamp does have plate 3 characteristics of a light ink film and mottling, in addition to a color approaching the prussian blue. It is very likely a plate 3 item.

I will say that there is a prussian blue shade known from plate one-early. I had a stamp, that Ashbrook had identified only as 'plate 3', and it was a nice dark prussian blue. It was a B relief with a nice guide dot, but I couldn't plate it for years. Well, it turned out that it perfectly matched 69L1E, and, in fact was a plate 1E stamp. I had a copy of that position in two shades on Plate 1E and also a 1L copy (#9). A very interesting study, and a warning -- if you get stuck on something in the dark blue shade that just 'has' to be Plate 3 (or plate 2 -- they have it as well), there is a small chance it could be a rare item from plate 1E.
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Posted 01/30/2017   3:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
dudley - wow, I looked right past your 6-7R3 pair the first time through. Not sure how, what a nice item!

7R3 is a great position. It has a really fine, but definite plate crack running horizontally across the lower label. It is not drawn in the Neinken book, and might possibly not exist on all copies, but I bet yours has it if you look closely. I can see what I think may be a piece of it in the colorless oval beneath the N of CENT.

Many of these plate 3 cracks are very fine, and require better than 10X magnification to even see. I use 12X and that works -- or of course, a high-definition scan. Let me know, I'll be curious to see if it is on yours. I had a 7-8-9R3 strip, which had the 7R3 crack very well defined.

Very very nice pair.
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