Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

US #11A - In Search of the Elusive Plum Color  
 

Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 05/28/2017   8:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Classic Coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Been doing a major review of my US 1851-57 3-cent imperforate stamp collection to assess colors of newer acquisitions. One appears to be a very scarce yellowish orange brown. Others look like strong plum candidates. Here is a scan of a confirmed plum at top left (that I purchased directly from Dr. Bill Amonette) with three plum candidates. I'll have to submit one of the candidates to the Philatelic Foundation to see if I can get a cert. I'd appreciate any comments.

Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
2272 Posts
Posted 05/28/2017   9:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chasa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
965 Posts
Posted 05/28/2017   10:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
By my eye, and I suppose by my computer monitor's eye, I can see the color in the known plum stamp by looking at the background behind the head and the stronger parts of the engine turning. The bluish black of the cancels otherwise throws the look of the color off. The others here look like claret/claret shades to me, but that's just me.

A notable feature of the plum you have is the relative lack of plate wear for the issue, implying an early printing. Do you know if that is so? The little spandrels are quite intact, with the PF example similar. The rosettes and engine turning are very strong, as is the outer portrait frame, rather more than the other stamps shown. The PF scan is too fuzzy to compare, though its outer portrait frame is quite strong.

Maybe you could ask Dr. Amonette for a quick look before submitting any for a cert.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
285 Posts
Posted 05/28/2017   11:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dr. Amonette passed away about three years ago.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 05/29/2017   10:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The passing of Dr. Amonette was a great loss to the hobby. He knew Carroll Chase, and acquired much of his collection. Here is Dr. Amonette's obituary:

http://www.roanoke.com/obituaries/a...1ddcdd3.html
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 05/29/2017   11:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hy-brasil,



Thanks for the link to the PF plum submissions.

The plum color is only known from plates 2L, 3, and 4, and only from 1857 printings. My plum at top left was printed from plate 2L (position 73R2L), which was first put to use in January 1852. However, Chase notes in his book that the 1857 printings from plate 2L were "beautifully clear," and that ". . . it is probable that the plate was carefully cleaned in 1856."
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
965 Posts
Posted 05/29/2017   8:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry to hear of the passing of Dr. Amonette.

Thanks for the clarification on the plums. I find that capsules on the Classic Society page for the 3c list two shades as "plum"(!), explaining that one is not the "true plum". Mmph. The 3 plates and release years for the "true plum" overlap with the other.

It also notes that Chase described the "true plum" as a "deep brown with a hint of claret". That's sure what I see in your plum, for what that's worth. Per the description given for it, could the LR stamp be the other plum/a plum? That would be my choice for a cert submission.


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by hy-brasil - 05/29/2017 8:13 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2461 Posts
Posted 05/29/2017   9:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stampcrow to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry, I know I shouldn't be posting scans. It's always an epic failure but... I can't help myself.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
642 Posts
Posted 05/30/2017   3:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billw2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The PF has seemingly been extremely hard on Plums over the years.

Do that search on pfsearch again, but just search for "plum" and you'll see 26 certs come up, 21 of which are 3c Imperfs submitted as plums and not a one got a cert as a plum!

That being said, if Dr. Amonette called it a plum, I would certainly agree with his opinion. Questions is, will the PF?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 05/31/2017   9:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I find that capsules on the Classic Society page for the 3c list two shades as "plum"(!), explaining that one is not the "true plum". Mmph.

Regarding the plum color, from the May 2005 USPCS Chronicle article: COLOR STUDY OF THE 3 STAMP OF THE UNITED STATES 1851-57 ISSUE: AN UPDATE by Dr. Amonette and Wilson Hulme:

"The name is a misnomer as the actual plum color of the fruit is closer to a deep claret or deep purplish claret. We have seen an early color chart by Dr. Chase made perhaps in the late 1920s or early 1930s. The plum in this chart appears to be deep purple claret. We have also a small Dr. Chase chart dated April 1954 in which he has an example of the present plum he calls "The Real Plum," suggesting he changed his original idea as to the color. This "real plum" has more brown then the purple claret and is a distinctive shade."

Here's an image I posted in another topic, showing that the "true plum" compares to the inside of the fruit, rather than the outside. Mr. Chase sure sent us on a wild ride!

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
90 Posts
Posted 08/02/2017   9:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tgswanner to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I know that Dr. Amonette had Dr. Chase's original color chart. Does anyone know what happened to it after Dr. Amonette passed away? He was always very friendly and helpful when asked to help identify colors.
It's also interesting to note that several years ago I had a 'certified' plum. I sent it to Dr. Amonette for a confirmation. He said that the color I had was what most certifying agencies were calling a plum...but it wasn't THE REAL PLUM that Dr. Chase has in his chart.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by tgswanner - 08/02/2017 10:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1207 Posts
Posted 08/03/2017   10:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a good question. I have a feeling that it found a good home - as I know that Bill was acutely concerned with passing the torch. He had made Wilson Hulme a gorgeous color chart - arguably way better than the Chase one (multiple 4-margin pink's, intense OBs looked common, etc). I'm not sure where that one went, but I've been out of circulation for quite some time. At one point, it seemed as though he was trying to pass the torch to Wilson, but with Wilson's premature passing, I don't know how that worked out.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1744 Posts
Posted 08/03/2017   9:41 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Seems like the last I heard was that Bill's son had it???

I do know where Wilson Hulme's color chart went.

Bill Amonette made several color charts for various 3c collectors. Some are better than others.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 08/14/2017   10:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Aside from premium color sets and such that he would have passed on to other specialists, Bill Amonette seemed to be aggressively liquidating his collection on eBay from about October 2000 to June 2005, according to my purchase records. I stopped collecting around June 2005, and started up again ten years later. I bought the above plum from him in February 2005.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1207 Posts
Posted 08/17/2017   4:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I had a whole album full of (mostly imperforate) 3c stamps, and I recall mailing the whole thing to Bill once upon a time. I told him to take a few stamps that he liked from it, to keep, and tell me if he saw anything interesting in there. After a few weeks, I got it back. He made one of his trademark color charts out of my material. It was really nice.

I regret selling that, as I had added to it over time, and verified it well with Wilson's nice chart, such that the one that I had was quite accurate. I had both Plate 2L and 3 OBs, plum, and a pair of 2E copper OBs. Bill had made very very nice ranges of shades for each color. Really, the two key items that I was missing were Pinkish, and Intense OB.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1067 Posts
Posted 11/08/2018   9:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Classic Coins to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know what happened to the image of the four plum candidates that I linked at the beginning of this thread, but I'm re-posting it for an update.

Well, 13 years after buying the #11A plum variety from Dr. Bill Amonette shown at top left in the image, I finally sent it in to the Philatelic Foundation along with the stamp at the bottom left for plum certs. I chose the bottom-left stamp because it seemed to be a fresher (untoned) specimen of the plum color in comparison to the ex-Amonette specimen which, to me, looks a little toned.

The ex-Amonette stamp came back certified as plum, but the stamp at bottom left was determined by the PF to be a deep claret.

I sent four stamps in with this shipment; the stamp that looked like a plum match, and three ex-Amonette stamps along with Dr. Amonette's hand-written notes. Coincidentally (or not?) all of the stamps for which I provided Amonette notes were certified as described by Bill.

I've been collecting this issue for 34 years, and I can't believe how such a barely perceptible difference in color can mean a catalog value of $22.00 compared to $2,200.00!



Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2018 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2018 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.86 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05