Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

2c Washington Stamped Envelopes: Whats What?

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 1,395Next Topic  
Valued Member
Netherlands
314 Posts
Posted 06/27/2017   2:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
i have a bunch of 2c U429-435

trying to determine whats what with the scott catalog...but not really working.thin and thick lines and letters little moved...for me the example pictures are not very clear. I have invented a lot of new die's... just some are strange in my opinion



most of them I did get but have a bunch left over.

does anyone know of a web page that can direct me further (free, its not my main collection target) or can someone help me with theese?







Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United States
6770 Posts
Posted 06/27/2017   2:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These are a specialty in itself, and are treated as such in the Scott Special Catalog. I do not know of any free pages about these.

Peter
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Netherlands
314 Posts
Posted 06/27/2017   3:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thanks peter, I have the scott...nad that helped me trough most of them. this is the unknown ones left
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 06/27/2017   3:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not quite free, but still a great value: on the UPSS's website ( http://www.upss.org/code/epublications.php) you can get Bill Lehr's Collector's Guide to Circular Dies as a downloadable PDF for $9.00. If you are a member of the UPSS, it's only one red cent for Bill's book! Join UPSS for only $28! What a deal.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 06/27/2017   3:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To be able to help you identify these, we need a scan of the backs of these envelopes and a measurement of the head size (or, alternatively, a scan where we can measure the head size. I tried to detach one of the scans and use a measurement tool, but there is something wrong with the way these scans were made).

Suggest doing them one at a time. Scan with a decent resolution (300 or 600dpi)

In the meantime:
Row of 6 #1, 4th envelope is Die 7; 6th looks to be Die 8
Row of 6 #3, 1st envelope is Die 8; 2nd looks like Die 7
None of them are Die 9.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Netherlands
314 Posts
Posted 06/29/2017   3:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Dutch US Stamp Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thomas and all the others, thank you so much. I will re-scan and upload during the weekend!
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 04/07/2020   8:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bluejay2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As with the original poster in this thread, I am attempting to identify the nine dies associated with the 2¢ Washington stamped envelope. These images represent my preliminary identification, though I lack an eye for visual detail and I am not using the best measuring equipment. Feedback is welcome.

Possibly U429: die 1 on white paper


Possibly U429a: die 2 on white paper


Possibly U429d die 5 on white paper


Possibly U429e die 6 on white paper


Possibly U429f die 7 on white paper


Possibly U429g die 8 on white paper


Possibly U429h die 9 on white paper
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 04/08/2020   4:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Referring to the batch immediately above:
I am 100% certain Dies 9 and 8 are correctly IDed; 95% certain Dies 7 and 8 are correctly IDed; Die 2 is actually a Die 1.

With this 2 cent circular, it's always good to provide a scan of the reverse side. Often, dies can be dropped out or, narrowed to, a subset of the die types by examining the reverses.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 04/10/2020   09:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bluejay2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you to ThomasGalloway for the feedback. I appreciate the affirmation that dies 7, 8, and 9 are correctly identified and even greater to know that I misidentified a die 2.

I was preparing to upload reverse scans, but quickly abandoned the attempt, as my scanner is performing poorly on reverse side scans.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 04/10/2020   09:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
". . . is performing poorly on reverse side scans. . ."
Odd, your front side scans are fine. You aren't trying to image the inside of the envelope, are you?

Just need something like this:


That image tells me its a low-back knife, and if there is evidence of a rotary knife (what the arrow is pointing to), then it means it is one of Dies 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6). A high-back knife would mean one of Dies 1, 7, 8, or 9. Other attributes can narrow it further. Often you don't need to look at the front side at all.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 04/12/2020   8:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bluejay2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. Indeed I was attempting to scan the rear of the cut squares, thinking the embossment could be measured more accurately. Thank you for clarifying that it should be the rear of the envelope. I am taking one step back on this project, temporarily focusing on the "entire" envelopes in my possession and ignoring my cut squares.

First, I am familiarizing myself with the possible envelope sizes for 2¢ Washington circulars. Gathering information from a variety of informal sources, the possible sizes appear to be as follows, excluding wrappers:

  • 7, 139 x 82 mm, 5 1/2 x 3 1/4 inches (5.5 x 3.25)

  • 8, 149 x 85 mm, 5 7/8 x 3 3/8 inches (5.875 x 3.375)

  • 9, 149 x 92 mm, 5 7/8 x 3 1/2 inches (5.875 x 3.5)

  • 10, 160 x 89 mm, 6 1/4 x 3 1/2 inches (6.25 x 3.5)

  • 11, 160 x 95 mm, 6 1/4 x 3 3/4 inches (6.25 x 3.75)

  • 13, 171 x 94 mm, 6 3/4 x 3 3/4 inches (6.75 x 3.75)

  • 14, 119 x 92 mm, 4 5/8 x 3 1/2 inches (4.625 x 3.5)

  • 17, 130 x 105 mm, 5 1/8 x 4 /18 inches (5.175 x 4.175)

  • 19, 191 x 99 mm, 7 1/2 x 3 7/8 inches (7.5 x 3.875)

  • 20, 219 x 92 mm, 8 5/8 x 3 5/8 inches (8.625 x 3.625)

  • 21, 225 x 98 mm, 8 7/8 x 3 7/8 inches (8.875 x 3.875)

  • 23, 241 x 105 mm, 9 1/2 x 4 1/8 inches (9.5 x 4.175)

  • 25, 258 x 111 mm, 10 1/4 x 4 3/8 inches (10.25 x 4.375)



Reviewing my specimens, I believe that I possess:

  • one envelope of size 25**, high back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 54-55mm, therefore die 134/1, 140/7, 141/8, or 142/9

  • one envelope of size 23**, high back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 49-50mm, therefore die 134/1, 138/5, 140/7, 141/8, or 142/9

  • one envelope of size 13**, low back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 54-55mm, therefore die 134/1, 140/7, or 142/9

  • one envelope of size 10**, low back*, squarish side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 49-50mm, therefore 134/1, 138/5, or 139/6

  • four envelopes of size 10**, high back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 42-44mm, therefore 134/1, 138/5, 140/7, 141/8, 142/9

  • four envelopes of size 10**, low back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 54-55mm, therefore die 134/1, 140/7, or 142/9

  • one envelopes of size 10**, low back*, rounded side flaps ends, white, height of top flap is 53-54mm, therefore die 134/1, 140/7, or 142/9

  • two envelopes of size 10**, low back*, rounded side flaps ends, blue, height of top flap is 54-55mm, therefore die 134/1 or 142/9



Generally speaking, do I seem to be going in the correct direction with this deduction process? At this point, I was relying heavily on the UPSS catalog referenced below. Next I will compare the remaining die possibilities.

The resources I predominantly used to my advantage in this identification process are:
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
551 Posts
Posted 04/14/2020   09:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Generally speaking, do I seem to be going in the correct direction with this deduction process?"

Generally speaking, yes. But, the more knowledge you pick up, the easier it will be to ID new envelopes.
For instance, Die 9 can be IDed a mile away because of the narrow C in CENTS (plus the U, O, and G). If you see that narrow C, don't waste any more time, it's a Die 9.

Another bit of 'experience' is the difference between a manual knife (cookie cutter style) and a rotary knife.
The following is a picture of a highback manual knife. Note the smooth edge all around.


The following diagram is from one of the early patents for a rotary knife:



Note that this knife is composed of many small pieces, which all have to be exactly aligned in order to produce a quality envelope blank. To get a perfect envelope blank, as you'd get with the manual knife, is essentially an impossible task.

So, you learn to spot the rotary knifes which are only found with Dies 2 thru 6. See the red arrow in an earlier post in this thread. That little irregularity tells you you have a rotary knife. A smooth edged knife is found with Dies 1, 7, 8, and 9.

Each of these steps reduces the pool of probable knives.

Sometimes the watermark can help. Maybe the paper color or wove/laid status.

The resources you quote are all good. If you don't own the UPSS catalog, I highly recommend it. Good bedtime reading
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
15 Posts
Posted 04/15/2020   1:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bluejay2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you to "ThomasGalloway" for adding the rotary images and explanation. I had been quite curious as to how the machinery differed.

As of this morning, I am currently satisfied with my 2¢ Washington identifications and the placement of specimens in my album. Thank you for the assistance. I do have two questions.

One of my resources has been the 20th and 21st century dies PDF on the UPSS website. In the identification grids, it lists various knife subtypes such as 57, 57x, 57w, 58, 58w, 59, 59w, and 60. What are these numbers? (My guess would be identification numbers for different cuts/knives with potentially tiny differences.)

You recommended the UPSS catalog. Though I have found the UPSS website, can you provide a direct link to the recommended book. (I suspect the PDF I referenced is only a portion of said book.)
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 1,395Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2020 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.22 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05