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APS Arbitration/Litigation Re Donation

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
601 Posts
Posted 09/04/2017   07:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add SPQR to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are two sides to every legal dispute. So far, we have only heard one side of the story. Without knowing all of the facts it is impossible to decide which side is "wrong." The APS has wisely decided not to try the case in the court of public opinion on internet message boards but rather in a real court before a real judge.
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Posted 09/04/2017   09:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rustyc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Frankly, I would rather have an arbitration award than a court ruling, as a court ruling is easier to appeal!


That's undoubtedly true from a hindsight point of view if you're the arbitration winner. But most litigators, I believe, strongly prefer court proceedings, where the parties can usually have a jury and, as indicated above, the right to appeal is much broader if the original decision is adverse. That's why the fine print in credit card agreements and other contracts with large companies that don't like juries contain mandatory arbitration clauses.

I don't know anything about the APS case beyond what's stated in this thread. But I agree that its counsel would undoubtedly advise the directors and officers to refrain from commenting on or discussing the matter in a public forum.
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Edited by rustyc - 09/04/2017 09:27 am
Valued Member
United States
456 Posts
Posted 09/04/2017   09:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joe1225us to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My previous comments on this matter may have been overstated, as I was mistaken as to the kind of arbitration that took place. I have since read the threads over on the 'other' board. This was NOT arbitration as a result of an agreement to arbitrate. The kind credit card companies etc have you sign. In which case my previous comments would still stand. Virtually impossible to appeal. This was a court ordered arbitration, which either party can appeal. Although courts do give strong deference to the ruling of the arbitrator. I will also note from the 'other' board, where the plaintiff has posted, that the plaintiff wants not just his donations, but his legal fees etc. Which he has a snowballs chance in!@#$% of getting. So assuming that he is not willing to settle for just his $20K, which is the impression I get, the APS is not necessarily being foolish in not just settling. Not necessarily, as we wont know until the APS reveals their reasoning etc. Which will never happen
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1566 Posts
Posted 09/04/2017   09:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mkfarm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know why but I got interested in this story. I'm not a ASP member but I plan on joining when I make my visit this month. Why, well as a hobbyist we like to join groups supporting our hobby if for no other reason.

It is a story of money, power and rich men. All that I am not. It was not hard to research the players. What I couldn't figure out why would Some one spend $15,000 TO get back a $20,000 donation. Why would an organization spend at least the same to keep the donation?

That just didn't make sense. Of course with the looming appeal the original $20,000 will cost both parties far more. So you see there is something more going on here.

Why would a former community activist and former APS official take to a different forum and be so vocal in the support of the person who made the donation? I found it interesting that he was no stranger to controversy and suing members of APS.

There was a battle looming many years ago about relocated the organization from State College to Washington DC. So controversy is not new.

Why would a simple show and who was invited or was not invited to display their collection be an issue?

Why would a person want his donation back and at the same time sell his collection and basically get out of stamp collecting all together.

For those that love stories there is a lot to read, discover, understand and follow. It is not a simple I want my $20,000 back. There is more to discover as you research pars and present APS board members too, though this takes more time and is a little harder.

I feel the true answer is in front of my face and its answer is with one man. Researching this person has not been easy but a lot points to him. I just couldn't figure out why he brought it out into the open when he had no vested interest. He was making a lot of smoke now I had to find the fire.

I'm far from finding the fire but if you like who done it mysteries this is a fun one to investigate. I'm far from having the answer. My gut does tell me this is a story of power and money. Of course my trail could be the wrong one.

Lol who knew a simple thing like collecting stamps could be so interesting. By the way if you have not seen the JENNY collection you should. It is an amazing collection and I would suspect few people could ever have the ability to build such a fine exhibit.
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Posted 09/04/2017   11:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The way I read the comments the issue is a bit more than just the donation but other factors such as what happened (or did not happen) at World Stamp Show.
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Al
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44 Posts
Posted 09/04/2017   12:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CANADA150 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is not the first time that a stamp society has bit the hand that has fed it.

What about the dealer who bought thousands of dollars worth of books at the request of a society to help them out?

Later the same society lowered the price of the books to much below what the dealer originally paid.

The society was selling the books at the much lower price and the dealer couldn't compete with it.

The dealer was undercut by the society and cannot sell any of the books which felt like a stab in the back.
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Edited by CANADA150 - 09/04/2017 12:38 pm
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 09/04/2017   12:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All I can say, having been a board-member of another society, in the past, is that things are not always as they seem. All information is not always appropriate to be shared, regardless of what the internet wants. I have no knowledge whatsoever of this specific situation.
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Pillar Of The Community
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1565 Posts
Posted 09/05/2017   12:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I had a few things to say "over there" and have left further active participation. Here, I think SPQR and mkfarm have the right approach. To which I would add, once the "former community activist" gets going with his agenda, he doesn't accept any comments that disagree with his position.

As for revenue collector's comment here about donors going away, I'm definitely not a big money donor to APS except in my estate plans. However, nothing I have seen written "over there" is enough to dissuade me from making continuing contributions to APS. If anything, I'm likely to increase my end of year donation, thanks to motivation from the "former community activist" ( who does write good scholarly articles).
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Posted 09/05/2017   1:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Climber Steve, you had an APS board member express concern about the negative publicity of the situation. Based upon his comments, they were not briefed in detail.

I understand the silence by APS and as long as this is pursued and I do not expect any comment now and in the future no matter the outcome.

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Al
Edited by angore - 09/05/2017 1:29 pm
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Posted 09/05/2017   6:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For those with an interest, there is posted on the other forum (message #113 on the active thread) an email reply from Scott English to an APS member inquiry about this issue.
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Posted 09/05/2017   7:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joe1225us to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
For those with an interest, there is posted on the other forum (message #113 on the active thread) an email reply from Scott English to an APS member inquiry about this issue.


Although the message is basically ' I can not comment due to litigation'. Not sure what you see there.
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Posted 09/05/2017   7:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jeez, I didn't say that there was a mound of profound insights to be read into what the reply was. Just calling people's attention to the fact that it was there, given that more than a few folks have commented on APS' silence, and letting other people read it rather than paraphrasing it myself. Jeez, sorry for wasting the 15 seconds you spent looking at it. What the f is it with these forums that any post intended to be a little helpful has to be met with snide retorts.
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456 Posts
Posted 09/05/2017   7:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add joe1225us to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What the f is it with these forums that any post intended to be a little helpful has to be met with snide retorts.


Wasn't intending to be snide. Sorry if you took it that way. But there has been a lot of attention paid to the fact that the APS has not commented or explain their seemingly foolish decision to spend so much money to protect a $20,000 claim. To that, you posted that Scott English posted on a different board. To which I replied that his reply did NOTHING at all to explain the APS decision.
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Posted 09/05/2017   11:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mml1942 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oracle of Delphi: Thank you for calling attention to that post.

Everyone else: The post made on the other Board which is under discussion above was mine. I had intended to duplicate that post here, but was distracted.

After over 100 posts on the other Board in several different related discussion threads, with many readers "speculating" as to why the APS had not made any response or explanation of their actions to the discussion on that Board, and with other readers further speculating that the APS had not commented because it was a matter under consideration under the courts, I decided to post the email message I had received from Scott English, in which he basically stated that the reasons outlined in those many speculations were correct.

I have no disagreement with Scott that this is the correct action for both he and the APS to take at this time.

The sole objective of my post was to end one area of "speculation" on that Board thread. It was not to complain that the APS or Scott were failing to respond, or provide explanations, but simply to allow Scott's statement to be viewed and read by all interested parties, which explained why neither he or the APS was in a position to provide a more detailed explanation at the present time.

Based solely on the statements posted by Don and the document summaries provided by Ken, my personal view is that Don Price has been wronged, and the APS Board has acted with poor judgement and in a manner that disgraces the organization. But I have no other knowledge beyond what has been posted on these Boards.

Like most disagreements, I suspect that there is Don's truth, the APS's truth, and the real truth, and all will differ in some ways when the end is reached.

Mike Ludeman
APS Life Member 3351
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Edited by mml1942 - 09/05/2017 11:20 pm
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Posted 09/05/2017   11:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What a sad state of affairs. Nobody will win. Philately will lose. Me thinks that the APS has lost sight of what this is all about. An enjoyable pastime. Not a political game revolving around who can score the biggest check from a member. Nobody needs the APS. The APS does need us however.
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