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Questions about Bureau printing direction and exceptions  
 

 
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Pillar Of The Community

Germany
837 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   3:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

I am going through a lot of precancels again and would like to know:

- from what time on were the Bureau precancels of horizontal stamps also reading up ("both allowed" up and down), so that this wasn't an exception anymore like for the early 20c Golden Gate stamp?

- I know that inverted precancels are very common and I have a lot of them. But I read here somewhere that chasa (I think) said that for the Bureau precancels the inverted are all fakes, so they are not that common. Is that correct, or are they also common for Bureau?

thank you.


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Pillar Of The Community
United States
807 Posts
Posted 11/14/2017   6:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stamperix,

In the U.S. there are basically two types of Precancels: Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) precancels and Local "Town & Type" Precancels. To the best of my knowledge, Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) precancels are not found inverted. Local "Town & Type" Precancels are where inverted precancels a numerous and not considered fakes…there is no premium value placed on inverted "Town & Type" precancels. "Town & Type" precancels were designed to permit Postmasters in small towns to precancel stamps where they could not meet the minimum order of 250,000 to 500,000 stamps required by the BEP. To my knowledge ALL BEP stamps, sheet or coil were printed "UP", not "Inverted". There may be a rare exception of an error sheet. I'm sure someone will correct any error I make.

Best,
Hal

Hallo Stamperix,

In den USA gibt es im Grunde zwei Arten von Precancels: Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) und lokale "Town & Type" Precancels. Nach meinem besten Wissen sind Bureau of Engraving & Printing (BEP) Vorstufen nicht invertiert. Lokale "Town & Type" -Herausforderungen sind, wo invertierte Vorauswahlen eine zahlreiche und nicht in Betracht gezogene Fälschungen ... es gibt keinen Premium-Wert, der auf umgekehrte "Town & Type" -Voraussetzungen gelegt wird. "Town & Type" Vorentwürfe wurden entwickelt, um Postmasters in kleinen Städten zu erlauben, Briefmarken vorzumerken, wo sie die Mindestbestellung von 250.000 bis 500.000 Briefmarken, die von der BEP verlangt werden, nicht erfüllen konnten. Meines Wissens wurden ALLE BEP Briefmarken, Bogen oder Coils "UP" gedruckt, nicht "Inverted". Es kann eine seltene Ausnahme eines Fehlerblatts geben. Ich bin mir sicher, dass jemand irgendeinen Fehler korrigieren wird.

Beste,
Hal
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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
837 Posts
Posted 11/15/2017   09:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Hal, nice to have two language versions :), I also understood your English one, so I continue in English here.

So that would fit to what I remember having read here at SCF before about the inverted BEP precancels (which then wouldn't exist if it's correct?), as said I don't find the thread anymore where it was discussed.

About the "up" I meant the reading of the precancel of horizontal stamps, which at least at the beginning all were reading down (with the mentioned exceptions), but to some point in time there must have been a change as I have seen many BEP reading up horizontal stamps later?

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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
837 Posts
Posted 11/16/2017   3:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I searched and read a bit longer.

In this PDF by the PSS it says that only the three well-known precancels on the 20c Golden Gate were inverted (BEP). So there are no others.
http://www.precancels.com/wordpress...ecancels.pdf

I was surprised when I found here some of yours, chasa, style 241:
http://goscf.com/t/46945#406180

But then I understood that in the PSS style chart...
http://precancels.com/wordpress/wp-...dium-res.pdf
...these aren't all BEP styles. I thought so before as I took this PDF as an opposite to the local types. But only the first types (page 3) are bureau plates, the others aren't. I also have the PSS bureau catalogue of 2007 and wondered why there are only these first types but not all the others listed in the style PDF. Now I know.

The "reading up" or "down" question I can also answer by myself, as I think the reading up is just "inverted", and "inverted" does not exist at BEP with the mentioned exceptions.

But of course I still have a question which is now a bit different.
- there are nearly no BEP inverts - ok.
- there are many inverts on local precancels - ok.
- but: are there also inverts on the styles 101 - 906 (see style PDF), or only on the "L"-locals?






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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2235 Posts
Posted 11/16/2017   9:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chasa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To answer the question posed on your last line - yes there are invert on many of the 101-906 styles - on the 100 series there is a catalog that lists and prices all the known orientations - on the DLE series (241-252) there is a catalog that lists and prices all orientations - on the other printed types (200's and printed locals) some catalogs list and price orientations - the other (400-900's) can be collected but reference books usually ignore orientations.
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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
837 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   02:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, chasa. Everything is answered. I look at the catalogue page of the PSS http://www.precancels.com/pss-publications/.
I think the DLE catalogue is there, but the 100 series catalogue, which one would that be?


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Valued Member
United States
181 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   11:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lioness2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello
I just reviewed the PSS literature pertaining to only 3 exist on a 20c, (figure 9).
I went threw my pre cancels and I found these two 20c with overprints Milwaukee, Wisc in down and upward direction. These are not considered part of 3 BPE list. Has another one been found?

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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
837 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The three reading up precancels are BEP precancels, so you would always have to check whether your precancel is a BEP precancel (types on page 3 in the style PDF in the link above).
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Valued Member
United States
181 Posts
Posted 11/17/2017   12:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lioness2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Milwaukee, Wisc. is in the Electroplates category 234 as per the PSS Style Chart.
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