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Does An Off Center Stamp Like This Spain 25c King Alfonso Xiii Have A Formal Philatelic Name?

 
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Posted 11/18/2017   8:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add jchrisler to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all,

I am wondering if there is a formal term for a stamp that actually has portions of 2 stamps on it. Please see this:



Please let me know if this is just a terrible job at the stamp making process or if there is some philatelic name for this type of stamp.

By the way I have identified the stamp as a Sc# 338 A49a 25c rose red - the stamp does have a control number on the back, was issued between 1922-26.

Thank you for your help, Julie
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Posted 11/18/2017   8:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Petert4522 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Juli, this type of error is called "mis-perforated". It really is not all that unuaual, especially in older stamps. Sometimes specialists collect these mis-perforates, but they generally look for stamps that are perforated through the middle.

Peter


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Posted 11/18/2017   9:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much for explaining it to me Peter. Julie
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Posted 11/19/2017   01:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There is something else that could have a similar look.

This is where a full sheet is cut into panes before distribution. Miscutting results in stamps having an extra wide margin, not always showing part of the next stamp. It would then show the cutting guide line, if there is one. These happen even on modern stamps. Example of a classic from a Siegel sale (therefore we get buttons):


This is called a straddle pane stamp.
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Posted 11/19/2017   03:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello hy-brasil,

Thank you so much for telling me about straddle pane stamps. I think that is what this Spanish stamp that I have is. It has the edge of the stamp next to it running down the left hand side of the stamp while the right hand side has been cut off before the edge of the stamp. That is why I made the comment in my first post about it being a terrible job by of making a stamp, it is evident when looking at this stamp that this is what happened. There is no guideline present however, I don't think this stamp had any guidelines - must a guideline be present to be considered a straddle pane stamp?

Thank you hy-brasil for your response to my question. Julie
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Posted 11/19/2017   04:56 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

First time I have met with "straddle Pane" Thank you.

From my experience, these Spanish Era stamps, were often mis-perfed,
I am sure I have seen tens if not hundreds.

Of course, one tends to send them on as "duplicates" when better examples are in the offing.


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Posted 11/19/2017   07:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Julie,

If the perforation lies well into the design (say a third or more of the way in) it can be referred to as perforated " cheval".

French catalogues such as Maury list "piquage cheval" stamps as collectable varieties.
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Nigel
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Posted 11/19/2017   11:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Interesting.
" cheval". By horseback, ( a leg each side)

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Posted 11/19/2017   11:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No guide line is required; sometimes there isn't one. But we do have to know the typical margin size of the stamp and also whether a printed sheet of stamps was broken into panes.

I think for the earlier Spain shown, we have stamps with normally big margins vs. the size of the stamp design. So your stamp is probably not a straddle pane stamp. You have to wonder whether the printers were trying to give themselves as much leeway as possible to get a proper stamp (and kind of failed anyway).
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Posted 11/19/2017   3:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
hy-brasil said:

Quote:
But we do have to know the typical margin size of the stamp and also whether a printed sheet of stamps was broken into panes.


I don't understand what you mean when you say "whether a printed sheet of stamps was broken into panes." Could you tell me what this means, not sure what is meant by a "pane". To me each stamp would be a pane -and that is just a guess.

And how do you ascertain the typical size of a margin? That isn't listed as far as I know in the catalog. Do you find this out just through experience?

I don't think this would even come close to being " cheval" - there is nowhere near 1/3 of the left side stamp in the frame of the stamp (would the correct word here be "pane"?).

Thank you to everyone who has responded here, I do appreciate every response. I especially appreciate the images so thank you. Julie
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Posted 11/19/2017   8:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In the StampSmarter glossary under p we find pane

http://stampsmarter.com/Learning/Glossary_P.html

The actual margins will vary with stamp issues.
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Edited by littleriverphil - 11/19/2017 8:36 pm
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Posted 11/19/2017   9:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you littleriverphil for your response.

So, I guess you need to know if a particular stamp was on the edge of a pane to be called a "straddle pane"? In which case the stamp I have would just be a poorly made stamp rather than a straddle pane?

I have no idea how to find out the typical margin size of this stamp or whether a full sheet of of this particular stamp was cut into panes, much less whether this particular stamp was on the edge of a pane. So I suppose if this particular stamp straddled 2 panes it would be called a "straddle pane"?

And thank you Phil for pointing me to the glossary. I will use it from now on.

Does anyone know if there is some sort of source for this type of information - I am thinking a book on Spanish stamps at the library if there is such a thing - I don't live close to a library so this would be a special mission. I have searched the internet for how to find the typical margin of a Spanish stamp and have gotten nothing back about the margin.

If anyone can tell me how to figure out whether a stamp was on the edge of a pane and what its typical margin would be I would appreciate it very much. Thank you,

Julie

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Posted 11/19/2017   9:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littleriverphil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A stamp catalogue would have the information as to how many were printed per sheet. Your local libarary should have a set of Scott catalogues. But as a general rule, definitive stamps like your stamp here, are printed in large amounts, from 160 to 400 per sheet. Look at the sheet that illustrates the pane. See how each pane has two cut edges? One stamp of each pane will have two cut edges. These are also likely to get re-perfed, another caution to be aware of. The gutters are wider than the margins between stamps
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Posted 11/19/2017   11:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
littleriverphil said:

Quote:
A stamp catalogue would have the information as to how many were printed per sheet. Your local libarary should have a set of Scott catalogues.


Here is the catalog entry for the King Alfonso XIII stamp above:



I don't see any mention of how many panes there were when this stamp was made in this catalog entry. There is one item in the entry I don't understand yet and that is the word "Compound" up above the dates of issue, number of perfs, etc. I looked this word up in the StampSmarter.com Glossary and only found "Compound Perforation" which I am guessing is not the same thing. So does the word "Compound" somehow refer to the number of panes on a sheet?

I also looked at the front of the Span listing and read everything there. This point was mentioned at the front:



I have found this subject interesting, am still unclear about how to tell how many panes a particular stamp has from the catalog. But, I am willing to put the subject to rest until I run into the issue again, if I ever do.

Thanks everyone for your help in teaching me about this mis-perforated stamp. Julie
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Posted 11/20/2017   12:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Around here, this site is a decent worldwide reference. Here's the Spain page with your stamp:
https://www.stampworld.com/en/stamp...ps/1920-1929
Note that as with other stamp issues, and just to confuse us, the overall size of the stamp does vary, sometimes by a lot. So the margins will vary also. Note just the width difference between the 10c and the 40c below it.

You just have to see a bunch of stamps from a specific issue to get some idea of the typical range of margin sizes. Multiples like blocks or pairs will show you typical stamp to stamp spacing. Luckily, as production equipment got way better in very modern times, there is less variation in margin size for stamps with the same design. So:

The block shows us the typical spacing between stamps. There's a right sheet margin here, but it's been miscut so we get little bits of the pane at the right and the (full) margin between. How do we know? We've seen typical panes from the Liberty series or this specific 4c stamp to tell us something is "wrong". With that margin part showing perfs on both vertical (margin) sides, this is called a guttersnipe, essentially straddle pane but more specifically for stamps with the full perforated margin.

After all that, straddle pane stamps aren't that big of a deal for collectors so don't get too wrapped around the concept. It's not often found but not particularly valuable. In fact they're disliked by many, being off-center and often straight-edged. It's a variety that is not catalogued. They will often be straight edged, but not all straight edge stamps, showing a big margin or not, are straddle pane stamps.

Now here's an old Great Britain stamp with a huge left margin. But from experience and seeing multiples, we know this is just how margin stamps were purposely made for GB issues in this time frame. Making your head spin yet?

Also note when you use Stampworld, pay attention to the sidebar at left. Not only are pages broken down by dates, but there are also separate pages for things like airmail issues, postage dues, other special use stamps. Bookmark this and maybe sign up (free), as the site will ask for login sometimes.

EDIT: Scott is a general catalog and as such doesn't go into such detail as sheets vs. panes. Their US specialized will show common sheet formats and give sheet and pane sizes. Not every country's specialized catalogs will give that info.

"Compound" mean a combination of the different perf gauges given, for example meaning (say) perf 11 horizontally, perf 13 vertically on a stamp as well as other combinations exist. But there may even be something like perf 11 on 3 sides and perf 13 on another. Most collectors don't care about the different combinations but specialists might.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 11/20/2017 12:38 am
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Posted 11/20/2017   01:00 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jchrisler to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for pointing me to stampworld, I have bookmarked it and will be going back. There is quite a difference between the two sources (Scott catalog and Stampworld) for a used stamp of this type. Again, I understand the prices are for Very Fine stamps, so the King Alfonso XIII above, being an example of a poor perforation job, is worthless.

Thank you for showing me the Lincoln block and explaining the straddle pane to me - that has helped a lot.

I will be getting a stamp gauge at the beginning of December, it will be my Christmas present to myself. I am using a tape measure that has centimeters and milimeters on it. I did measure this stamp based on the description in the Scott catalog and determined that this particular stamp was made with Die I - had to balance the tape measure and look at it under the loupe to count the milimeters, but did do this.

hy-brasil said:


Quote:
Making your head spin yet?


Yep, you did make my head spin but have read it over several times now and hope I have understood it all. Thank you for the pictures, I do appreciate them also. They help describe what you are talking about a lot.

Thanks again, Julie


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