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Questions about U89 Wrapper sent to Germany  
 

 
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Pillar Of The Community

Germany
828 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   06:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
hello,

I found this interesting piece with a 2 Cents U89 (I think) and 5 Cents Lincoln. It seems that it was sent to Germany.

Because the distance of the indicia to the border is large and the paper is horizontally laid, I think this is a wrapper (it also seems to be manila).

two questions about wrappers then:
- were they send internationally? (maybe the cancels and the 2c+5c tell us something?)
- is there a "rule" how the watermark of a wrapper is oriented? I read that for envelopes it's mostly horizontal or vertical (not aligned with the diagonal laid paper). but what about wrappers - was the watermark in some way oriented, like with the laid paper lines, or also diagonal?

(this wrapper has a watermark 14 horizontally)

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4928 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   06:24 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi stamperix,
Appears to me to be a nice overseas usage of a wrapper but I am not an expert, I am sure some of the postal stationary folks will offer more experienced opinions.

Note the toning of the stamp, my theory is that cheaper wrapper paper contains a lot of acid and this is destroying the stamp (and eventually the entire wrapper). While we often see posts that make the case for leaving stamps on cover and pieces we rarely (if ever) see posts which discuss how to prevent (and/or reverse) acidification of the cheap paper found in our covers/wrappers. There is a spray product made to neutralize paper but I have not seen posts from anyone who has used it.

I find the lack of discussion about this topic to be unusual.
Don
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Valued Member
468 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   08:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would say the Scott number for this wrapper is W399. UPSS # 1472-14



The watermark for this issue has its vertical axis aligned with the chain lines (perpendicular to the laid lines). Since all the paper for envelopes and wrappers came from the same paper mill, your wrapper's watermark should look identical to my envelope's watermark. Albeit, probably horizontally laid.
The one caveat being that the operator could have placed the knife in a non-standard orientation while cutting the wrapper blanks. I can't remember seeing one of those, but they must exist.
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468 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   08:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"There is a spray product made to neutralize paper but I have not seen posts from anyone who has used it."

Don, years ago I read about an amateur technique of immersing paper (at the time it was old maps, not envelopes) in a Pepto Bismol bath. Diluted I believe. A quick web search didn't turn anything up, but I didn't spend much time.

Google "deacidification spray" and you'll see commercial products available.
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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
828 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   09:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you both.

yes, it looks exactly as your watermark, Thomas, and as you assume, the watermark is (as the laid lines) horizontally. Just the question about what you mean with "for this issue": do you mean this indicia or all wrappers in general? I suppose, as always in stamps, it's not the easy answer. Just would like to know whether the watermark orientation can help identifying wrapper vs. envelope (in this case it's a wrapper of course, but for the future).

Also, is it correct that this wrapper was used to send it to Europe? (2c+5c, cancels?)
Can't imagine that to that time newspapers were send such long distances.
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Posted 01/11/2018   4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
". . . is it correct that this wrapper was used to send it to Europe?"

Yes.

I'm not an expert on rates, so someone else will have to tell us what the 7 cents bought.
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Posted 01/11/2018   4:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"what you mean with "for this issue": do you mean this indicia or all wrappers in general?"

The envelope contract was re-bid every four years. They changed the watermarks with the new contract, and usually the design of the indicia. The contract and the new designs are referred to as an "issue". Your wrapper is from the Hartford issue. The watermarks are vertically oriented with the chain lines in this issue, as with others. With some issues, like this 1894 Plimpton, Morgan and Purcell watermark #12, is on an angle:

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
4703 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   4:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually sending newspapers or magazines to Germany at that time is not all that uncommon. There were a lot of German immigrants sending things back to the relatives in the old country in those days.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
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Posted 01/11/2018   5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I interpret the 7c rate as 5c for 1 ounce surface mail to a UPU country (Germany) plus 2c for a second ounce. Rate mavens, is this right?
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United States
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Posted 01/11/2018   6:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These wrappers were used to send newspapers, even to foreign countries. I'm not up on the exact rates to Germany for the period, but I believe it would be a heavier weight than two ounces.

There's not much on these wrappers, as far as use or history, in either the Scott Specialized Catalog or the UPSS 20th Century catalog. I don't have the Beecher-Wawrukiewicz International Rates volume, so I cannot speak authoritatively on the international rates at the time.

For domestic Third Class mail, including printed matter, such as newspapers, the rate was 1 cent per 2 ounces until changed in 1925. If this rate were doubled for international mail, this would be rated at 7 ounces for the rate shown.

Perhaps someone can explain the international rate better.

Hope this helps.
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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
828 Posts
Posted 01/12/2018   03:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you very much all already.

Thomas: as I supposed it's not an easy answer :) - is there anywhere like a list of issues and their watermark + orientation?

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Valued Member
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Posted 01/12/2018   08:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThomasGalloway to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"is there anywhere like a list of issues and their watermark + orientation?"

The UPSS envelope catalogs have pictures of all the watermarks, and of course they are referenced in the catalog listings.

As far as orientations goes, there are two types.

(1) orientation relative to the paper web as it comes off the paper machine and is wound onto the jumbo roll (laid paper ends with watermark 18, so we need a different definition to get at the same thing with wove paper envelopes from W19 on through W51)

(2) orientation of the watermark relative to the face of the made envelope, which takes into account operator orientation of the paper stack, or, for web fed machines, orientation of the web roll.

I'm not aware of a book that covers them all, but you see articles in the philatelic press from time to time that demonstrate collector interest in this area.

typo edited
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Edited by ThomasGalloway - 01/12/2018 09:00 am
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
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Posted 01/12/2018   09:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok thank you again. These categories are helpful. And yes, this is an interesting collection area.
I didn't remember exactly, but I thought at the beginning that the watermark orientation can help sorting envelopes vs. wrapper (if the laid lines don't help or additionally to them as information). The goal must have been (often not always), to show the watermarks horizontally or vertically so that you can "read" them, not diagonally. So the normal thing should be for laid paper: envelopes have the watermark not aligned to the laid lines, but wrappers do. That's also the case for this issue, as you showed. But as always it's not an easy thing, so I will just look for watermarks in any direction :).

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Edited by stamperix - 01/12/2018 09:41 am
Valued Member
United States
377 Posts
Posted 01/13/2018   09:59 am  Show Profile Check jobi01's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jobi01 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Per Tony W's international rates book, newspapers were mailed at 1-cent per 2 ounce suggesting that the newspaper contained in the wrapper above weighed 14 ounces.

NOTE: the you number under the picture in the Scott catalog identifies the picture, it is not the catalog number. Use the picture number to identify the item in the listing.
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Bill Lehr
US Postal Stationery Specialist
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