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Pillar Of The Community

United States
3447 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   11:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add floortrader to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Is it just me or are there too many stamp auctions . Looking at SAN there is a new firm listing there every month . At first I though many dealers have started up on eBay but now starting to think many are now starting auction firms .
There are so many firms listing auctions ,it has to be impossible for all these firms to have enough competitive bidders to make a auction ,maybe they are just looking for opening bid buyers .

Also noticed a lot of those openings are getting to be a smaller percentage of catalog ,guess their just bottom fishing to get some kind of bid to start off with and then have reserves much more in line with retail prices .
If you start looking at prices on eBay your seeing a lot of nice stuff going for prices that have been reduced from just 2 or 3 years ago .Prices on a few things are staying strong but over all there clearly a pull back .
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1656 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   11:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
...can it ever be too many stamp auctions ?
I'm primarily a buyer and not a seller, so I'm only cheering if the market is overflowing with material
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4928 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   11:36 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...can it ever be too many stamp auctions ...


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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1089 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   12:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion, what you are seeing is the migration of established mail bid auction firms to SAN, because of SAN's increasing popularity and success. When SAN publishes statistics like those relating to the recent Siegel auction, in which an overwhelming majority of bidders came from SAN, then of course others want to join. I do not think it is a transition from eBay, but rather from those that ran mail bid auctions.

As for lower opening bids, I noticed this with one or two recent SAN firms, but not with all. I don't think it's a trend, it's just a choice that one or two made.

As for a broad "pull back," you have said similar things from time to time as very large generalizations, without evidence - you would need to back this up with data. Markets cycle and fluctuate but to suggest a broad depression of prices can't be done without solid evidence.
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Pillar Of The Community
1260 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   12:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Love the competition for buyers and I have not seen any crossover from eBay sellers. SAN has a reputation and I do not foresee them ever letting most strictly eBay sellers jump in the pool with Siegel, Cherrystone, Harmer etc.. It would destroy their reputation when the first batch of defective, misidentified, fake and "error line" lots were presented.
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Pillar Of The Community
2740 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   12:54 pm  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many dealers are now competing against collectors at auctions for material. This has sometimes resulted in dealers outbidding collectors for some items only to find out that they were bidding against one of their own customers on a want list that they thought they would get the item for to resell to. However, this results in an upset customer that does not want to buy the overpriced item that they got outbid on by the dealer and the dealer is left with an unsold item that they overpaid for. Thus, both the dealer and their customer can lose out on this while the seller and their auctioneer can win from this.
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Edited by jogil - 01/11/2018 1:00 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1006 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   1:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shermae to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've been under the long-standing impression that many if not most dealers buy at auction and it's only perhaps the last 30-35 years where collectors have gotten increasingly into the fray. Can't imagine dealers outbidding a collector for key material- they'd have such limited upside to sell retail.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1089 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   2:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cjpalermo1964 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This has sometimes resulted in dealers outbidding collectors for some items only to find out that they were bidding against one of their own customers on a want list that they thought they would get the item for to resell to. However, this results in an upset customer that does not want to buy the overpriced item that they got outbid on by the dealer and the dealer is left with an unsold item that they overpaid for. Thus, both the dealer and their customer can lose out on this while the seller and their auctioneer can win from this.


If this happens to a dealer, then the dealer is lacking in business fundamentals. You don't buy an item (even in this scenario) at ANY price, you buy lower and sell higher. The dealer in your scenario should have quit earlier and waited for a similar item in another sale, that the dealer could make money on.

I have outbid dealers several times in live auctions in circumstances like this. After getting what I regarded as a bargain in London, I chatted with a dealer about it once. "Why did you drop out, it was still way below catalog?" I said. "I hit my wholesale limit," he said. "Of course you could go higher ... you're a collector."
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Valued Member
94 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   4:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add fantail to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A collector should always be able to outbid a dealer in any auction. Where people get confused, is when they mistaken auction agents for the dealers.
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Valued Member
United States
473 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   4:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jarnick to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is possible that a dealer can and will outbid a collector. Possible, but rare. Say an item comes up that the dealer knows his customer needs to complete his exhibit and will gladly pay $2000 for the item. The collector wants the item, but considers it only worth (to him( $750. The dealer, knowing the item is pre-sold can readily top the $750 collector bid and still offer it to his customer at a price below $200 that gives him a reasonable profit.
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Pillar Of The Community
1260 Posts
Posted 01/11/2018   4:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I run into NYStamps all of the time at Rasdale. They lock everyone out of the large lots for the most part.
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Valued Member
Australia
425 Posts
Posted 01/12/2018   5:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For me it's finding material, no matter how many auction houses are around.

DLR stamps on cover are a sleepy aspect of New South Wales philately so without loads of demand I have to be patient.
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Valued Member
United States
116 Posts
Posted 01/12/2018   6:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hoosierboy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Econ 101: The true value of anything is the price a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller.

Auction estimates and catalog values are other people's efforts to influence the transaction for the benefit of one or more third parties.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1647 Posts
Posted 01/15/2018   10:58 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Looking at SAN there is a new firm listing there every month . At first I though many dealers have started up on eBay but now starting to think many are now starting auction firms .


I doubt most of them are new, just new to SAN.
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Valued Member
United States
469 Posts
Posted 01/16/2018   07:00 am  Show Profile Check paperhistory's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paperhistory to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
as cjpalermo said, I think SAN is bringing in mid-tier and local auction houses that haven't otherwise advertised or were not previously generally known in the market. I still mostly restrict my activity to the "national" houses but I do occasionally find a new house that I like.

Definitely getting harder (as a dealer) to buy bulk cover lots at auction. Much more competition from other online sellers and I increasingly get the impression that some buyers are willing to work on extremely low margin or hope for a few surprise realizations. I still get a few here and there (and some individual lots too) but more of a challenge than it used to be.
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Pillar Of The Community
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United States
2332 Posts
Posted 01/16/2018   09:07 am  Show Profile Check Battlestamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Battlestamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
paperhistory: I hear you. I prefer the mid-tier auction houses myself as typically they have less competition and still turn up interesting material. But as the same time, bidding has been more competitive across the board. SAN has been great, but it always seems I'm beat by the people bidding on the floor. I'll "win" the SAN auction, but lose to the floor or maybe telephone bidding. Or I'm just not that aggressive, but I don't want to go over budget.

I'm actually picking up more stock from other dealers at local shows. Some of the local dealers are trying to move material as much and fast as possible. I've been able to get some great box lots - material that's cheaper than most auctions with plenty of good material if not better since I can really look at it first. One well known dealer even told me that he would go broke if he bought every postal history collection presented to him since so much of the material is hitting the market all at once. Most of the material is coming from other dealers retiring/passing away or even some of the larger collectors. The local dealers just can't keep up and it works well for me to acquire material, but then I can't keep up with turning it around. Add two 3 year old twins to the mix and you'll understand why.
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