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#1702 With Double Impression Of Black - Known Variety?

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 03/06/2021   6:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
eyeonwall
legit or not once out it is not always possible to determine the origin of an item. the high speed press
printing of that time lent itself to these types of problems. most shifts were considered within tolerances and were subsequently issued. their were quality control problems as well and a look at the meany color/perforation omission listings will show.
i understand the difference between the front door and the back door and was I thought clearly expressing my opinion about the listings.
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Posted 03/06/2021   7:15 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Without any documentation/specifications on what was 'acceptable' in terms of quality issue like color shifts I doubt this issue will ever be settled. Somewhere in the supply chain these docs/spec have to exist. I cannot believe that large print jobs are done without them, this is Manufacturing 101. And in fact printers like Sennett are ISO so they HAVE to have these kinds of documents for every print job they do. I wish these specs would be public so our hobby could get rid of the moving target of 'errors' and/or 'varieties' definitions.

It sometimes feels like as the use of scanners and higher resolution imaging has become more commonplace there are more and more 'errors' and/or 'varieties' being discovered; many of which are almost impossible to see with an unaided eye. In the future will we see pixel level 'varieties'? What was originally considered 'ok to ship' and what was not? Would not most collectors be primarily interested in stamps that should not have shipped vs. sloppy or lesser quality printing artifacts?
Don
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Posted 03/06/2021   8:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mstocky2 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Link to the Linn's article on ghost tagging.

https://www.linns.com/news/us-stast...-ghosts.html

John, on your tangent, the bottom tagging shift is the largest I have found on the 1703 so far as well.I have a picture on stampsmarter Tagging and Luminescence Database.

https://stampsmarter.org/features/TaggingView.html
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Posted 03/10/2021   08:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add souldjer777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is as you see it - a variety. We are clearly trying too hard to logically explain how something MAY or MAY NOT have happened or why it happened when we should be focused on the fact that it exists as a variety.

Australia lists pretty much anything you could possibly think of as a variety and they are probably the most extreme example I can list. Shouldn't we be doing a better job of listing these in our catalogs???

Take these for example:

Short Spencer Gulf
Saddle on Emu
Broken Leg on Kangaroo
Broken Leg
Sunken Lower-Left Corner
Lower Frame Missing
Line through'FOUR PENCE'
Deformed Right Frame
Distorted Left Frame
Long Wing to Plane
Spencer Gulf Elongated & Curved
Flaw off Qld Coast
Hooked 'C'
Kangaroo Misplaced
Clipped Ear at Right
Very Short Spencer Gulf
Hunch-Backed Roo
Notch in Roo's Snout
Island North of Arnhem Land
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Posted 03/10/2021   08:57 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So folks just make a variety in their own mind, attach some cutesy name to it, and sell it on eBay as a 'rare'…sounds about right.
Don
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Posted 03/10/2021   1:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
eyeonwall nailed it, see mstocy2's first link.

"... moving target of 'errors' and/or 'varieties' definitions" as Studebaker51 writes, really does not exist. In the EFO world, errors must have a complete element added or missing and be fully and exactly reproducible. Anything less than full and fully reproducible is a Freak or Oddity The issue is many folks think "ERROR" = BIG$$$$. Nope! But muddying the water can benefit the seller's pocket book. What allows for this muddying is the different usages of error, freak and oddity in common language and as used in the technical nomenclature of EFOs in philately. For example a double (or more) impression come when the paper strikes the printing plate more than once, but as shown by ghost impressions, gum side offsets from the sheet stacked beneath it, blanket offsets for example, second images can be applied to the stamp. Only the first is an error per EFO nomenclature.

E=B$$$? Consider for example a stamp with the error of completely missing gum--there are huge gum skips out there resulting in some stamps getting no gum. But that is a discussion for a different thread location in this forum as well having been well discussed in the EFO Collector, journal of the EFO Collector's Club. Also Amos Press (Linn's) publishes a book (catalog)on US Errors. It too defines "error."
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Edited by Parcelpostguy - 03/10/2021 1:55 pm
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Posted 03/10/2021   2:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The challenge is the lack of an agreed upon standard definition, which will never happen either. I have posted my general EFO 1-10 continuum scale several times with the observation that most owners tend to rate the items they own a point or two better than what a neutral party would, or call any slight deviation an "error". EFOs are just too varied to pen-down to absolutes, which is why I don't agree with portions of parcelpostguy's explanation. It is often a "feel", an art and not a science. But all this may be getting far afield from a thread on Scott 1702.
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Posted 03/10/2021   5:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Parcelpostguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
John Becker, I must respectfully disagree. As with any area of study and knowledge, one needs to be familiar with the subject matter. One's lack of knowledge or willing ignorance does not change the underlying cold unemotional foundations.

I drive a cars, SUVs and pick'em-up-trucks. I have sold examples of the later two. I don't count pick and pull as a true "sale" nor donations which will be auctioned for parts. So I have never 'sold' a car. To me cars are well, cars and needed transportation, be they a Stanley Steamer, 1955 Gullwing, Twin-Supercharged Shelby Cobra 427 Super Snake, Yugo or Tesla. Just because I once got my '69 Coup DeVille's air conditioning recharged at one of Carroll's Ford Dealerships, does not mean I know spit about how to tune his personal Twin-Supercharged Shelby Cobra 427 Super Snake. Now if I wanted to, there is information for me to reference and learn from such that I had the knowledge base to do so. However, willful ignorance in this area works for me but not for the current owner if he asked me to tune up the TSSC427SS. Yet that ignorance doesn't mean I don't know how to double clutch when driving my six speed (two speed rear end) 1.5 Ton 1931 International B-2 Flatbed. Likewise when I sold my SUV and trucks, I needed to be able to answer some questions before I hold out my palm for cash, with my other hand holding the keys pointing at the vehicle and grunting, "Wann-it? Looks cherry for its age, I don't believe in Bondo 'cause it rattles off where I drive and I actually drove on a Sunday to church once to help a little old lady neighbor."

[The stamp shown in the OP's post is a Category 57 (Freak) example in the EFO codification discussed below.]

EFOs (think cars) are really no different. There are references and information available. One can expand one's own knowledge, or not. Once you are holding the item, the challenge is not the classification but rather understanding what happened to create what you are holding. When you know that classification becomes easy.

The EFOCC started in 1978. After 22 years of input, discussions and improvements a rather comprehensive codification of EFOs was developed with the 2000 version, by John Hotchner who started the EFOCC, available to all, on line, for free here: https://www.efocc.org/Resources/Hot...AA_Cover.php from which I quote the Introduction, the last sentence being the most important in my opinion:

"Introduction

"Errors, Freaks and Oddities, popularly called EFOs, are the riffraff of philately. Or they can be considered great treasures, depending upon the attitude of the collector speaking. To some, they are simply defective material, no more useful or interesting than a car that doesn't work correctly, and just as infuriating. To others, it is material that exists in only small quantities, illustrates what can go wrong in the production process, and takes the collector a step beyond the printed album page to a higher level of challenge and understanding.

"In earlier days, collectors gathered EFOs to dress up their traditional collections. EFO material was mounted on supplemental pages, along with interesting cancellations and other varieties. In more recent years, EFO collecting has become a respected specialty with its own national society, literature, and specialty dealers and auctioneers.

"Material included under the EFO category, and within each subdivision, is covered in this essay. Here are some elementary definitions for newcomers to the field:

"Errors are total mistakes: no perforations, colors completely missing, or full stamps on either side of an interpane gutter. They are often given catalog listings.

"Freaks, also called "varieties" or "minor errors" by some, represent production problems that are partial or not exactly repeatable, such as paper creases, misperforations or partially missing colors.

"Errors will sometimes be found within freak pieces. For instance, a paper fold (freak) may result in a miscut booklet pane containing a pair of stamps that are imperforate between (error). Or an ink fountain on a press may have run dry, depositing a minimal amount of ink on one row of stamps (freaks) and none on the adjoining row (error).

"Oddities as a class include unusual variations stemming from stamp designing through the preproduction process, and even cancellation varieties. They may be normal for what they are, but tend to be found in small quantities and are of special interest because of their properties.

"The first question noncollectors are likely to ask a collector is: 'Do you have one of those upside-down airplane stamps?' Of course, for the most part, they will be joking, but a collector will certainly mean it if s/he answers, 'No, but I wish I did!'

"The fact is that few collectors can afford the $100,000 or so it takes to add a pristine copy of Scott C3a to a collection. But anyone can own eye-popping errors and freaks that cost less than $100. It's just a matter of knowing where to look.

"The first place is at the post office. Considering that the U.S. Postal Service issues more than 40 billion stamps a year and retails them through 40,000 post offices, it should not be a surprise that flawed stamps reach the public.

"Every printing process has waste. The equipment has to start and stop. Because the printing process has become more automated and complex, more things can go wrong. And, of course, there is the human factor: Do something late, out of sequence, or not at all, and the result is flawed printing. It's a wonder there isn't more error and freak material on the market.

"Is "99.9 percent perfect" an acceptable quality level? That's a standard that even security printers can't reach. If that standard were applied in the real world, 22,000 checks would be deducted from the wrong bank accounts every hour, 12 babies would be given to the wrong parents each day and 315 words defined in Webster's Third New International Dictionary of the English Language would be misspelled.

"So, look carefully at stamps bought at the post office, from vending machines or at the supermarket checkout counter. And be alert for the person in line who is returning defective stamps and wants to trade them in "for good ones." It happens.

"The next place to look is in old stamp collections - both albums and accumulations. It is amazing what has passed through many hands and before many eyes without being appreciated for what it is. This is true for many areas of the hobby but especially for EFOs.

"The key is to learn about what exists. For special areas of interest, it is worthwhile to go through Scott and other catalogs and note the listed errors. The exercise gives an appreciation of color errors, perforation varieties, bicolor inverts and other flaws. Collectors who have a list in hand have a distinct advantage when visiting dealers' tables at shows or when looking at society circuit books and at auction lots. No one, including dealers, can know everything about every stamp.

"There is also a brisk trade in EFOs that have been identified by others. Increasingly, dealers and auctioneers are seeking EFO material and including it in their offerings. A few well-known dealers and auctioneers aggressively advertise themselves as EFO specialists, and new discoveries and established collections tend to flow to them.

"Looking at an auction catalog from Jacques C. Schiff Jr. might leave the impression that a huge amount of EFO material is in the marketplace. What it really means is that Schiff was a pioneer in this field and has built up a serious client base that generates bids. The result is that he consistently has a large EFO section in his auctions.

"Those interested in buying and selling EFOs can find advertisements of EFO dealers and auctioneers in the major stamp weeklies and in many other philatelic publications.

"They can also learn more about EFOs and how the EFO marketplace works by joining the EFO Collectors' Club, an affiliate member of the American Philatelic Society, which also has its own quarterly auction for members.(snipped address current will be on website linked above).

"What follows is a listing of the various types of EFOs with an emphasis on U.S. material. The list has been developed by Linn's U.S. Notes columnist John M. Hotchner. A few explanatory notes and value concepts are provided for each category. There is no way to be comprehensive for all examples in each category or over the entire world. Thus these notes will include only one or two examples from U.S. philately for the most part. Valuation of EFOs is complicated. The best references are current catalogue listings and auction realizations. The value notations here are general. Actual value may increase or decrease based upon factors such as condition (exceptional, or minor flaw) the relative complexity and "visualness" of the item, and the subject content of the design. With regard to the latter, popular themes (space, baseball, etc.) will tend to push the price up.

Bear in mind that any group from these listings can be collected as a specialty, or a collector can try to obtain an example from each group. Some EFO collectors restrict their collecting to specific stamps, issues or eras. Others simply accumulate and enjoy whatever comes their way, with no particular rhyme or reason.

"There is no right or wrong way. Whatever the method, your satisfaction is the only thing that counts."


Now perhaps I should set up a poll to determine if the illustrated item is an error, freak, oddity or as shown, all three; as in, the Freak driving the Oddity is clearly in Error.

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Posted 03/10/2021   5:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John Becker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Parcelpostguy,
No, I believed the discussion belonged in anther thread.
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Posted 03/10/2021   7:43 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"Australia lists pretty much anything you could possibly think of as a variety and they are probably the most extreme example I can list. Shouldn't we be doing a better job of listing these in our catalogs???"

Australia has released fewer stamps than the US (although they have recently been trying hard to catch up), so they have fewer to list. Due to their smaller population, they also produce fewer stamps per issue. With more stamps per issue, it becomes more likely that there is more than one incidence of any particular type of freak. You can't just say misperf to completely define a freak the same way imperf completely describes an error. You can't seriously expect a catalog to list a) misperf 4mm left b) 6mm left c)3 mm up etc.
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Edited by eyeonwall - 03/10/2021 7:45 pm
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Posted 03/10/2021   10:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Partime to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
souldjer777 made the comment
Quote:
Australia lists pretty much anything you could possibly think of as a variety and they are probably the most extreme example I can list. Shouldn't we be doing a better job of listing these in our catalogs???


I hope you realize that the Australia items you mention are KNOWN varieties with multiple known copies. As mentioned in other threads, as soon as you find more than one copy with the SAME issue, you are closer to being able to claim a new variety. Until then, just hold onto it and keep looking. Good luck.
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Posted 03/18/2021   08:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add souldjer777 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm calling this variety "Double Christmas" because who wouldn't love to have twice the amount of presents on Christmas ;)

Someone could spend a lifetime looking for an identical stamp... and I'm glad I don't have to because there are already two copies here shown on page 1.

Here are another two identical stamps with the same flaws. You were saying it gets me "closer" to claiming a new variety but that just simply isn't true.

The fact is - if you are lucky enough to find two identical stamps with the same characteristics - in your lifetime - you may be the only one that can claim the variety exists. Therefore naming the variety should be your choice.

http://goscf.com/t/74021

For newcomers to the stamp forums - if you show anything out of the ordinary - you will get replies that ask for 2 identical stamps - if you are lucky enough to find two in your lifetime. However, after you do find and prove to show two identical stamps - it still doesn't make it a variety. Your just "closer" to a variety. So completely ignore that last part and name the variety yourself and be done with it. At that point they are just being critical and they aren't worth the time or energy.
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Edited by souldjer777 - 03/18/2021 08:38 am
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Posted 03/26/2021   3:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Alan B to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Souldjer777 comments that if you can show two identical stamps with the same issue, you're lucky, but only getting closer to having a "variety". From my experience even that may not get you closer. I have 4 panes of the Simpson stamps bought in three different post offices in two different states, all with the same issue - misprinted date, and have been told by "authorities" that what I have is a "repetitive freak". Ever run across that term?
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Posted 03/26/2021   7:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As these stamps were printed in photogravure there is NO DOUBLE print. It a just a bleeding of excessive ink in the direction of printing i.e back towards the press!

The phenomenon of "direction of printing" had been discovered by Douglas Myall ("Deegam") in 1972. Myall is THE innovative philatelist specializing the UK Machin stamps writing the standard handbooks for all Machin collectors all over the world. He discovered the direction of printing as the prefential ink flow observed by comparing coil stamps and booklet stamps and the normal counter sheet stamps.

More or less simultaneoulsy the phenomenon was also discovered by Huig Tielman in the Netherlands who saw an ink flow in the 25c Queen Juliana booklet stamps printed in reels - the left half of the reel being tęte-bęche to the right half of the reel. The left half had the ink flowing upwards, the right half flowing downwards! He could thus tell booklets originating from the left half from those from the right half!

Huig Tielman inspired me to have a good look at all photogravure printed stamps and I found out that you could establish the direction of printing basically in all stamps that had been printed with cylinders. Not just in photogravure but also in offset-litho and in recess!

I gave the four directions - the preferential direction where the ink would flow - the codes B [oven = upwards], O [onder = downwards], L [to the left] and R [ to the right]. I have been using this way of denoting the directions of printing since 1974.





The Australian stamps printed in photogravure by Harrison show the ink flowing upwards. In this stamp the ink flow is quite spectacular, whereas most photogravure stamp will not show it this way!

The colour is usually a fade shade of the original colour - rather grey than black in the stamp shown above!

The ink of photogravure being rather fluid contains pigments that will stay at their place whereas the fluids will tend to move

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Edited by Galeoptix - 03/26/2021 7:16 pm
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