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Fraudulant cancels on Italian commeratives  
 

 
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Posted 05/17/2018   11:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Willwood42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The catalog value for used copies of these two stamps Italy 237 and 574 is too high for these to be true cancelations. Is there any way to tell for sure without them being expertized



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Posted 05/17/2018   11:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are two ways to test for real cancels one is going to take a lot of time and research . The other is just pay to have it expertized .

Right now I am working on German Inflation cancels and it has taken five year to a mass my own reference source ,that means thousands of stamps of that period and later cancels after that period {because a lot of stuff was canceled out of the correct time period ] . I have purchased expertize stamps and purchased bad certificates ,it is a lot of time and effort .

But back to your problem ,first if they are fake cancels that means other stamps were also done by the forgers ,so look around at other auctions to find that same cancel . Check the cancel strike to lower value stamps of that same period for color ,type of cancel design ,it is going to take work .
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Posted 05/17/2018   12:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Will have too find the same cancel,town as floortrader said.

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Posted 05/17/2018   12:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Willwood42 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Floortrader,

The cancellation date on 574 appears to be 1951 which is the issue date of the stamp, on 237 you can't tell. I have been looking at contemporaneous cancels in my collection and while the designs appear to be "correct", the real cancels don't seem to be as sharp or crisp as the ones on these stamps. As you say a lot more work.

Thanks again -David
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Posted 05/17/2018   2:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Type 9, Cancellation-date Type Conalbi with day, month, year and hour, place and province of the registered office.
(On the first stamp;this type of cancel was used from 1950....)
From what I can come up with..
http://www.postaesocieta.it/magazzi...i_datari.htm
In this link an arrival cancel on the back.
https://www.kijiji.it/annunci/colle...ila/74619612
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Posted 05/17/2018   4:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Willwood42 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi perf12,

Very nice copy of 237, and it has a certificate. I think the 574 postmark says "concorsi ginnici" in part and the 237 says "postes perrar" also in part. I need my son to work some photoshop magic and I should be able to read more of the 574. Then it is just searching for what those might be.

Thanks for the look at a real postmark
David
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Posted 05/17/2018   4:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 237 cancel I read (POSTES FERRARA...?.)on 574 it's FIRENZE with
CONCORSI GINNICI (gymnastic competition) on top.
On 237 the late type of the canceller put's doubts on it's authenticity.
I would think cancels from the period of the stamps issue would be
considered as more favorable.IMO
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Edited by perf12 - 05/17/2018 4:29 pm
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Posted 05/17/2018   4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Willwood42 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi perf12,

Didn't see your second post before I replied. Very useful webpage. I think you are right and the 574 is a type 9 and the 237 is a type 8. I also think your reading of the cancels is also correct.

So I (and by "I", I mean google translate) was trying to translate the Italian on your certificate, what is the bit about a photographic reproduction mean. Is your cancel not bona fide.

Thanks again
David
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Posted 05/17/2018   4:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It just says:canceled, of which a photographic reproduction is joined here.
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Posted 05/17/2018   4:52 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Willwood,
Here are instructions/link for Retroreveal, an online tool which often helps you better see cancels.
http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Ho...oReveal.html Simple and easy to use.
Don
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Posted 05/17/2018   6:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Willwood42 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Don/perf12,

So for Italy #574, commemorating a gymnastics competition that occurred in Firenze the issue date was 18th of May, 1951. On the cancellation we have Firenze, Gymnastics Competition and a postmark date of May 20, 1951. So maybe it is real and I should send it to be expertized. If it is a fake, they managed to get all the right information on the postmark

David


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Posted 05/17/2018   7:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
With the mint stamp cataloging 22.50 and the used being at 575.00, there is plenty of incentive for the good forgers to be at work here. It may well be worth your while to get this one expertized.

Even if the expertizer's opinion is that the cancel is bogus, you still have a reference copy of a nice stamp which would be sought after by an Italy specialist.
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Edited by bookbndrbob - 05/17/2018 7:23 pm
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Posted 05/17/2018   7:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In italy prices for used stamps like this without a certficate may
cost 30$.Generaly they are sold certified with the 3 stamps in the
serie together.You can check it out in e-bay.it. Just paste in
Francobolli ginnici 1951.I dont' see why your stamp would be fake.
Thousands of them were cancelled during the event.
Below a certified cover.I compared your cancel to the middle cancel
on the cover.They look quiet similar.Note the shape of the R and the
5 which is a bit askew & higher than it's neighbour.It could be the same
canceler even though the dates are different. !.Lucky.!





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Posted 05/18/2018   06:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I feel it's worth having them expertized, even with the additional cost of (probably) registered mail each way.

A lot of the fake cancels on Italy look printed because they have been, with breaks and thin spots purposely included. So these aren't in that class.

From what I can see from a scan, I like the looks of the 5L Monte Cassino.

I'm on the fence (for whatever that's worth) with the 5L gymnastics stamp. There was probably more than one cancelling device, but despite many similarities against the FDC cancel, the S and the G don't match. The bottom right stars are different sizes despite the very neat inking on the stamp. The stamp cancel looks rubber stamped (it might come that way normally); the FDC has a steel die cancel.

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Stamp Smarter's 20th Century US Fancy Cancel database:
http://www.stampsmarter.com/feature...rn_Home.html
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Posted 05/18/2018   07:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
One must make the distinction between the official Italian postal
FDC and the Athletic comittee that sold their own FDC covers.There were
several types.All these covers go for Hundresds of dollars.There was
a big business going on by the gynastic comittee at the time.
Article from W:https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginnici
______________________________________________________________________

The emission decree that allowed the printing of the three stamps known as "The Gymnasts" was the DP 21.5.1951 n 598 accompanied by the DM 14.9.1951 [3] Simultaneously with the Italian emission the same series was issued with the overprint Amg- Ftt (Allied Military Government Free Territory of Trieste) in black for use in the territory of Trieste still under Allied control. The issue was however accompanied by fierce controversy as the method of distribution used by the Italian Post Office recalled the same used during the monarchical period when, in the face of a commemoration, most of the printed quantity was usually transferred to the organizing committee of the event. These quantities were not always distributed equally by the committees. [4] and in fact the organizing committee of the International Gymnastics Festivals and Competitions of 1951, received 50,000 series that were resold at a price greatly increased compared to the face value. At the mobile post office operating near the facilities for the event, the values #8203;#8203;of 30 lire for the provincial management of Florence were sold for 200 Lire. The philatelist world, in those years very substantial and with a certain social weight, expressed its indignation to the point that, the president of the Milan National Philatelic Exchange Alfredo E. Fiecchi resigned in protest
Official FDC:


Comittee FDC's:




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