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US Prexie 842 With Small Holes

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Posted 06/22/2018   10:24 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott lists all the Prexie coils (hoziz and vert) with small holes.
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Posted 06/23/2018   03:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you, eyeonwall and cfrphoto for your answers.

I understood better where those small holes can appear, and what technical reasons there could be as well as the hole sizes. What I still don't get is the large range of values considered to them. I never saw a 842 for sale in an auction, not there is one at srailstamps for 60 USD and not sold (Ken gives much more value as information below the stamp image). The small hole edition of the 1056 sells for quite more and is still only a small hole variety. It seems it is not because of the number of stamps known, but more because of the story behind them and the obviousness of the small holes. So if today for all Prexie coils the small holes are listed (without value I guess?) then one would think that if the first ever small hole variety of another Prexie coil will be found it would have huge value, but I doubt it after looking at the 842 at srailstamps.


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Posted 06/28/2018   05:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I looked now in the databases of Siegel, Kelleher, Apex and PF. There are no sales or certificates for any Prexie else, only the 842. So I wonder:

- normally there is a reason for a variety being listed in Scott, like a sale or a certificate, both does not seem to be the case, so what do you think why they are all listed, additionally to the known 842?

- does Scott list prices for all those Prexie small holes varieties?

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Posted 06/28/2018   10:33 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
no prices

they don't need a sale to list something - they only need to see one (or possibly see a cert of one)
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Posted 06/29/2018   07:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you again. About the many catalogue entries: I can't really imagine that there have been seen by anybody including Scott small hole varieties for all this coils. I mean, who in this forum has seen or owns any Prexie small hole variety? Ok, DrGG has perhaps a 842, but didn't show it until now. But all the other Prexie coils, who really ever saw a small hole variety? And additionally there are no entries for small holes at Apex, PF, Siegel, Kelleher... I am quite sure only the 842 has appeared, but normally only stamps are in Scott that have been seen? Or are there any SCF members who know a small hole Prexie?
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Posted 06/29/2018   09:15 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Prexie small hole varieties exist. I can confirm the existence of a Scott 842 strip with small holes, the discovery copy, with an APEX cert. It was first listed in the Scott US Specialized catalog a few years ago. More recently, a large accumulation of Prexie coil multiples was examined and sorted into small, intermediate and regular (large) hole size varieties by a collector. The accumulation was examined by Jim Kloetzel the Scott catalog editor emeritus. He concluded that only large and small hole sizes existed and added the remaining small hole listings. Late last year I examined an 844 small hole pair submitted to PSAG.

I will not confirm the existence of other Prexie small hole varieties until a consensus exists in the expertizing community about criteria for identifying wet printing small hole varieties. The large hole size should be about 0.043". Scott 449 and 450 exist with extra-large holes measuring about 0.046" matching the original pin size specifications for the Stickney coil perforator. Small holes measure 0.037" for dry printings and 0.037" to 0.038" for wet printings. Measurements are from the top of the hole to the bottom in the direction of the margin between stamps. Some side to side stretching in the direction of the coil is expected.

Existence of "intermediate" holes measuring about 0.040" is an unanswered question. I examined a Fourth Bureau 723 with clean intermediate holes, but additional pairs are needed to confirm. It is possible that the collector who classified three Prexie hole sizes may be correct and some Prexie examples believed to be the small hole variety may be intermediate. Existence of Stickney (wet printing) small and intermediate hole sizes has not been fully explained.
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Edited by cfrphoto - 06/29/2018 09:18 am
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Posted 06/29/2018   3:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much, this explains everything. I will certainly think deeper into this topic when looking at my collection. I also think that there could be some clarification from the expertizing world. And I wonder why no stamps from all those many "new" small hole varieties have been submitted, if already Scott has made new entries for them.
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Posted 06/29/2018   10:49 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think I saw a 4c 843 small holes pair in a dealer's stock, but they were reluctant to put a price on it as it had just been listed, so they put it aside and that was the last I saw of it. I should have just bought it without saying anything.

As for why a lack of expertized copies - perhaps no one has felt it was worth the expense.
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Posted 06/30/2018   04:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, you should have bought it :). About the expertized copies and the value that collectors and the market gives the small hole varieties: this is what I still don't understand. There are:
- small holes Prexies
- small holes Liberty issue

Prexies: no value given, value of the 842 srailstamp coil pair 65 USD
Liberty: no value given (1055d) or low value (some) or high value (1056)

Am I correct in thinking that the market and the value of the Prexie small hole stamps is different from the Liberty small holes as the Prexie stamps are not clarified really (small, intermediate, large...) and so the expertizers and possible buyers don't want to risk to build a castle in the air?

Are then the Liberty small hole stamps more clear, and so there a stamp which is rare like the 1056 (or some others to be found yet) has the high value?

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Posted 06/30/2018   08:50 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Apples and oranges. Dry printed Liberty series coils were initially produced on 384 subject plates suitable for processing with Stickney perforators that produced the dry printing large (0.43") hole variety. The new perforators for the Cottrell presses had smaller (0.37") perforation pins that produced the dry printing small hole variety from 432 subject plates. It was not until much later that collectors noticed that a few wet printed Liberty Series coils from the Stickney press had smaller holes. More recently collectors noticed some small hole examples 5 cent (496a) Washington/Franklin coils. Finally, small hole Prexie series coils were noticed.

Values remain speculative until enough credible wet printing small hole examples are found to determine relative scarcity. Initially, no one would certify used wet printing small hole coils. Now, certified used examples exist. A detailed examination by a competent expertizer is needed to verify small hole wet printing coils because holes tend to be less cleanly cut than dry printing, leading to possible misinterpretation of hole size. Uncertified examples have little value. The few certified examples that exist are potentially more valuable.
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Edited by cfrphoto - 06/30/2018 08:53 am
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Posted 06/30/2018   4:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you again. Now I understood the missing prices or values for the wet printing small holes. It's not an easy area, as there are several things to consider (wet, dry printing, hole size, rotary press, year of issue, some Liberty coil stamps are only known on dry printing, some only large holes, others with all possible combinations...). But this is also the interesting part of it.
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Posted 04/06/2020   09:39 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interestingly, Rosback stroke perforator perforating pins had around a 0.040" (0.0395") diameter. The BEP was using such a perforator for some revenue stamps from 1914 to 1958 so that a supply of these pins at the BEP could have ended up being used on a Stickney coil bar perforator probably as a temporary quick fix economic measure.

Maybe even the smaller diameter sized pins from the Rosback Pony rotary perforator BEP supply could have been also used on a Stickney coil bar perforator around 1919 when this Rosback perforator was there at the BEP.
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Edited by jogil - 04/06/2020 1:00 pm
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Posted 04/27/2020   06:20 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If one searches U.S. Scott 839-851 for all of the Presidential Issue (1939) coil stamps for PSE certificates, one will find that these have now all each been certified with small perforation holes. See http://stampsmarter.com/Learning/PSEView.html to look them up.
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Edited by jogil - 04/27/2020 06:20 am
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