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1c 1851 Plate 12 Stamps

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Posted 09/28/2021   4:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a tough one. I'll give it a stab and say 12L12. Compares favorably with t he only copy I could find on-line at Siegel and is reproduced below as best as Siegel can allow. Also the faint blur going down the right side of the stamp. Also the small blur at about 2 o'clock in the O of ONE. The blurry bottom line and faint, almost broken top line.

Note the dot at the lower left of the lower left plume.
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Posted 09/28/2021   4:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Caper, I don't think it is a second-row stamp. The small portions of the plumes visible in the stamp above indicate that it (the top stamp) is a C Relief.
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Edited by dudley - 09/28/2021 4:45 pm
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Posted 09/28/2021   5:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Good eye Dudley!



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Edited by Caper123 - 09/28/2021 5:25 pm
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Posted 09/28/2021   5:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Dudley, there is this image in Seigel also which matches nicely and has a small bit of the plume of the above stamp visible in upper left, but sadly, it was not plated for the sale.


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Posted 09/28/2021   5:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What I like about the above stamp is the incompleteness of ornament S, T & U along with the blur. Most Relief B stamps on Plate 12 have complete ornaments there.
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Edited by Caper123 - 09/28/2021 6:00 pm
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Posted 09/28/2021   9:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add widglo46 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The position I've found that I think maps best is 32L12. I cropped the image from the block of 78 sold in Siegel's sale 1006 (lot 1535). The interstitial blurring matches my stamp at the top, bottom and right side better than any other position that I could find.
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Posted 09/29/2021   03:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PKsPassport to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don,
I can understand where you're coming from about the acid problem as in this picture you can see it started on it. But at the same time I can understand where dudley is coming from. The picture I posted was my first piece I'd purchased and fell totally in love with the patriotic cover. I've never really researched it I just loved looking at it. I'm glad you all posted information on how to slow the acid problem down. Thanks for the information gentlemen.
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Posted 09/30/2021   7:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Caper123 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Widglo46 - the 32L12 has a lot in common, for sure. I'm not warm an fuzzy about the lower portion of the stamp tho. Too bad the example has so much of it missing. That complete but fuzzy bottom frame of your stamp does not match up well from what we can see on the 32L12.
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Posted 11/20/2021   11:58 am  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thought I'd throw this one out.

  • obvious reperfing

  • I can't see a secret mark, although it could be there

  • plumes are really dark compared to the fine impression on top

  • scribe line at the top, but top row would be Type II if it's Plate 12


I looked for a Type I in Neinken, but nothing with mottling on the right and a dot in the "O" in ONE.

Here is the auction ID: 165132330740
And an image I cut:


So, I might be way off base, but was questioning whether it was a Type I, but I have no earthly idea what it is, if it isn't, and thought I'd ask all of your opinions....

Thanks! Ray
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Posted 11/20/2021   3:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not convinced one way or another yet, but the first thing to do would be to check the only possible plate positions it could be if it is indeed a plate 12 C relief- Ty I.

If it is an #18, it has to be one of - all plate 12:
30R, 70R, 90R or 100R

Left pane 10L column would show the centerline, 50R would show imprint.
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Posted 11/20/2021   5:31 pm  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Tex,
Looks like 70R has the mottling, but the marks in the "O" aren't a match at all. And the scribe line is confusing as much as the lack of a secret mark.
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Posted 11/20/2021   5:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am not convinced that the horizontal "layout" line at upper right isn't a scanner anomaly, crease, or the edge of a mount.

As to the notable dot in the O of ONE, could that be a hole, instead?

As to the lack of a so-called cancellation dot at 9:00 in the colorless oval -- there could be missing paper due to abrasion there .. not clear to me.

This scan leaves me with more questions than answers at the moment.
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Posted 11/20/2021   7:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think this is a plate 12 stamp - probably a Ty I #18.

The right margin blur is characteristic of plate 12 and I don't think this is an enhanced Ty V. For anything else "enhanced" it would have to be plate 1L, 2, 4 or 11 or 12.

It looks like a pl 11/12 item. The top looks fine, and would have to be:
- plate 11 T
- plate 12 A
- plate 12 C ( the Ty I relief )

On closer look I don't really see any obvious ink difference at the bottom. I think its an optical illusion.

I will say that I do have enough questions about the scan to where I'm not making any guarantees here. Just an educated "opinion" for what its worth. As you know, sometimes what you think you see in a scan can be quite different in person.
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Posted 11/20/2021   8:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I also looked long and hard at this and concluded that it is a #18. The dot in the O of ONE is not the same color as the printed design, so not a plating mark. There ought to be at least a trace of the secret dot visible, but as txstamp says there could be a paper issue at play. Except for this I think all the design elements are consistent with a Type I perforated stamp.
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Posted 11/21/2021   10:42 am  Show Profile Check ray.mac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ray.mac to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys--
Tx, the top looked more like my T relief Plate 11 stamp, and that was also confusing me.

Either way, I wasn't going to buy this stamp, but saw it and looked harder at it, since I had those questions about it.

Ray
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