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Japanese Early Postmarks - 1870's

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Valued Member

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Posted 06/26/2018   06:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add agb to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello forum members..

Help is sought with the translation of the postmark on the 1 sen blue stamp listed below.

It is on a small native cover which I have only shown the stamp itself.



It it possible to plate the stamp? I have several similar items all off covers which I know to be forgeries by Wada.

Hopefuly this one is genuine

Thanks Andrew
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Posted 06/26/2018   07:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
City is Tokyo; around the ring clockwise is Meiji 7 3 5 and "midday".

There is a book dedicated to the 1 sen blue and it contains plating photos. Obviously, this is pos. 1 of whatever plate it came from. Sorry, don't have the book.

Offhand though, the stamp looks to be genuine.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 06/26/2018 07:59 am
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Posted 06/26/2018   09:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add agb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks hy-brasil

I will try and seek out this book on the web.

Meanwhile, just for the full picture here is the front & back of the cover





Andrew
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Edited by agb - 06/26/2018 2:24 pm
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Posted 06/27/2018   04:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice cover! Can anyone read it to provide the destination?

The book is 1 sen Blue by Soichi Ichida. Thought this was a 1 volume work but it looks to be 2 volumes in some listings. Quite an expensive book(s), usually. I believe it should have photos of full sheets or sheet reconstructions like his other works. There are 26 plates for the stamp without syllabic.
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Posted 06/27/2018   3:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
agb: I fear your stamp and cancel a forgery.It does not have any characteristics of the genuine.the cancel is poorly done.
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Posted 06/27/2018   5:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add agb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12, I appreciate your comments

Very interesting, the stamp itself is a top marginal copy. It may look like its from the top left corner of a sheet, but its not. What looks like a margin to the left of the stamp is in fact an envelope join.

This envelope came in an original lot of letters with contents including various revenue documents c. 1870-1900's from an archive. They have never been on the open market or any auctions etc. It was from a direct source.

In view that this is a forgery I will further check if there are any other similar covers amongst this archive.

I just wonder why someone went through all the trouble to produce such an item or maybe its a postal forgery made to defraud the postal authorities?

As its obvious I am not a collector of such items but I find them of interest. To date all my revenues on documents look as they are all genuine as they are from the same archive.

I am hopeful that someone would confirm its a definite forgery..

Thanks
Andrew

P.S Just found this website relating to the 1 sen blue it is a good read....

https://postalmuseum.si.edu/researc...ng_Guide.pdf
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Edited by agb - 06/27/2018 5:43 pm
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Posted 06/27/2018   5:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of pics.Forgers don't always forge valuable stamps.On cover they
might get by if it's convincing enough.The second pic is the gouvernment printing.Look closely at the details....


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Posted 06/28/2018   12:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add agb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12. Thank you for your further clarity on the 1 sen stamp.

Andrew
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Posted 06/28/2018   06:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The added photos are insufficient to identify any genuine hand etched stamps of Japan. The name comes from the fact that each design was copied from some master and cut by hand for each stamp position. There is no master die rocked into the metal printing plate for each position -- stamp designs are different enough except for some common points. For the 1 sen, with 26 plates, there is enough variability to confuse genuine with forged and vice versa. The only positive means of identification particularly for the 1 sen blue is to plate the stamp. That can be done.

First comparison: agb's not a Matsuda printing -- there are others, and as above, you can't compare stamp to stamp except by certain known characteristics. The perfs on agb's stamp looks like government long tool perfs, which says "genuine" to me and is not typical of forgeries. I don't know what the first "gouvernment picture" is supposed to mean, but the identification points for the genuine are that there are tiny scallops between the petals of the chrysanthemum flower, which there are on agb's. The second point there is that the inner corner leaves are jagged whereas they are smooth on many forgeries. I don't know what the second "gouvernment picture" is supposed to show. The basic form of the branch ends is the same for both, there are no missing veins in the leaves as for some forgeries.

A further test of genuine is that the corner flowers and leaves more or less fill the corner spaces. (Wada?) forgeries commonly have relatively small corner elements. agb's are correct; the UR one has a short leaf, which would help with plating. Clarification is requested as to what this photo is supposed to show.

A postal forgery would be great on cover. I've never heard of a postal forgery of the 1 sen blue; it still might exist.

In the end, the cover should be worth sending in to the ISJP or APS for expertizing. That should settle the matter and you might request the plate number and position as that would be what the experts would use to determine genuineness. We'd certainly appreciate if you'd report back here if you choose to do so.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 06/28/2018 06:03 am
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Posted 06/28/2018   08:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

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Posted 06/28/2018   09:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Four common forgeries of the blue 1 SEN ---I have no reference books or done any study of these issues .
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Posted 06/28/2018   09:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bicolor1875 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have never seen forgery on cover ... the tokyo double circle is most common forged cancel.

here is ref source ... http://www.isjp.org/One
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Edited by bicolor1875 - 06/28/2018 8:43 pm
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Posted 06/28/2018   10:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add agb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Thanks to: perf12, floor trader, bicolour1875 and especially to hy-brasil for your valued input to this discussion topic.

What started as a request for the postmark translation has escalated to an interesting discussion
on the genuiness of the 1 sen itself for which I am grateful that forum members are prepared to share their knowledge on the subject for all interested persons to take part in with their observations and comments.

I was ready to put the 1 sen on cover into my forgery collection until hy-brasil's comments came in. This has further kindled my interest in this item.

I will certainly look into having this item expertised just to make sure once and for all as to the genuiness of the stamp etc. After all as I have mentioned in the beginning of this topic that this is probably the first time the cover has had such exposure since the 1870's..

I just hope that 'unechan' sees this topic and joins in with his comments and possibly helps with the address translation on the cover?

Andrew
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Posted 06/28/2018   10:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Andrew --I think your making to right decision to have it expertised .
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Posted 06/28/2018   11:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You can send an message too unechan directly ,too clear this up.
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Posted 06/28/2018   12:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add agb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just sent an email to Hironobu. I hope he will be able to respond before I sent the item for expertising.
Andrew
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Edited by agb - 06/28/2018 12:06 pm
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