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Ottoman forged cancels  
 

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Pillar Of The Community

France, Metropolitan
1352 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   08:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add perf12 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
There are many listings with Ottoman or Turkish cancels some with the reproduction
c/w or Brandt.In this pic below the IMPRIME overprint is fake.The cancel is over it.
How many of these types of cancels are forgeries?....a real problem for collectors.

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Australia
23796 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   08:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
IMPRIME overprint is fake.The cancel is over it.
How many of these types of cancels are forgeries?....a real problem for collectors.


Indeed,
the IMPRIME fakes are ubiquitous in eBay offerings, so much so, I refuse to even attempt to collect them. A really ugly part of the discipline.
I collect images of genuine overprints from high end auctioneer catalogues.
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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
2494 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   09:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's a very interesting question perf12.

I don't know much about forged Ottoman postmarks or misused cancellers.

I am used to the later problem of an autonomous Crete canceller that was frequently applied to unused stamps issued after the post office had closed. Garazo is a good example of this.

My suspicion here is that the faked overprint has been applied over the cancelled stamp and that the stamp has been selected specifically so that its dense black cancel would give the visual effect of being applied over the top of the overprint.

It's often very difficult to tell whether one cancel/overprint has been applied over another as the eye sees the denser printing more clearly.

I've seen a lot of arguments about this in the past.

The Ottoman cancellation would be straightforward to forge but I don't how frequently this has been done.
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Nigel
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United States
996 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   11:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Serrane Guide; published by the American Philatelic Society ( www.stamps.org ); does not address this particular overprint, or cancel.

However, it does say this, about later Ottoman issues, to confirm perf12 and rod222: "From 1900, sets resembling each other came off the press in rapid succession. From 1914, there is a veritable deluge. 400 new issues in 5 years. Many collectors rightly refuse to follow destitute states along this path."

Relevant to the thread: "Forged overprints pulluate; all the more reason why one should avoid involvement. As in the case for all overprints, the specialist relies especially on comparison in this area." I had to look up pullulate. It means to germinate or to sprout.

If Turkey follows the same pattern as early Portuguese colonies, stamps, overprints, and cancels all get forged. There probably is a collectors society for Turkish stamps. One can look on the APS web site under clubs or societies.
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Edited by Climber Steve - 10/09/2018 11:48 am
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Posted 10/09/2018   11:44 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
pullulate

Word of the Day, thanks Steve!
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/09/2018   11:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, Don. But the real thanks goes to Fernand Serrane (1880-1932).
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Posted 10/09/2018   12:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think Serrane was being rather harsh in his comments here.

I do wonder if there was some residual hostility being expressed here by a Belgian citizen for one of the defeated Central Powers?

In any case, I rather like the 1900-1914 sets in terms of design, especially the 1914 sets printed by Bradbury Wilkinson.

I can also understand the production during the war of so many overprinted stamps to make use of stocks of old stamps.
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Nigel
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France, Metropolitan
1352 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   1:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Some examples from an Auction:Alexandre A. Galinos Collection




Monday Oct 28, 2013 18:00 Europe/Athens
1912: Vlastos 1-5, 7-8, 1X-7X, 10X, 11, 11X, 17X / Hellas 1-8, 10-11, 16, "#917;#955;#955;#951;#957;#953;#954;#942; #922;#945;#964;#959;#967;#942; #924;#965;#964;#953;#955;#942;#957;#951;#962;" (Greek Occupation of Mytilene) Overprint on 1908-09 Turkish Stamps, with the overprint reading up and/or down. Duplication in some cases. Noted the better 2pi (x2), 2pi (x2) and 5pi values. Fresh, usual centering and perforations, all are used. Nice group, including genuine and forged overprints or postmarks, some with occasional fault, overall F-VF (Bill Ure's collection)



1913: Vlastos [29-31] / Hellas [25-27], Dedea#287;ac Surcharge on Turkish 1913 Stamps, three values, tied on pieces by forged negative seal DEDEA#286;AC (Alexandroupolis), backstamped "EvdV" but offered as forgeries, VF (Bill Ure's collection)
One can imagine the cancels on single stamps in the market place.Being able to identify a forged cancel is tricky business to say the least.By the way; it was only sold for 20euros..

Then you have the unrecorded cancels; This one selling 4000euros




Gacko: GAKO, UNRECORDED postmark in old-Turkish, gray-blue on registration receipt dated 1871. Post Office mentioned by A#287;ao#287;ullar#305; and Birken, but no postmark was recorded up today. This small town was occupied by the Austrians in 1875, VF (RRRR)

This eBay listing as a forged Nablus cancel:




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Edited by perf12 - 10/09/2018 1:58 pm
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
1352 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   3:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The ottoman postmarks in the Holyland are an old time favorite among all collectors of
Turkish stamps.Below a certified example from a Feldman aution and the 2nd is from an e bay seller asking 209$.What would you say as to the authenticity of the e bay sellers item ?





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E bay listing with a reproduction of the cancel (doubtful quality).






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Another example with this cancel:




Thursday Feb 12, 2015 23:00 Asia/Jerusalem
1888, Small Cover Sent From Safed To Bayern Germany Transit In Constantinople, Cancel Pmk SAFED. Bale: 768.
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Edited by perf12 - 10/09/2018 3:31 pm
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/09/2018   5:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi perf12,

Thanks for sharing these. Very interesting indeed.

In the case of Crete, there were "negative seal" or "intaglio" cancellations known from ten towns and villages and they are all scare to rare.

This is one of the main gaps in my Crete collection but I would be very wary of buying them given given the likely price and my confidence of whether they were genuine or not.

Crete also had Turkish post offices in fourteen villages where postmarks have not been recorded so far.
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Nigel
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France, Metropolitan
1352 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   6:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Results from the Galinos sale:a couple of seals,I suppose these are more common.



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Heinrich Khler auction;A nice example of an ordinary stamp with a high value.




Sitia 1884: "ISTIYE POSTA CHUBESI" black negative seal in Old-Turkish, tying a 20pa carmin on rose 1884 (perf. 13½) on entire folded letter written in Greek (dateline Limin Sitias 7.Jan.1887) sent to Neapolis. Not recorded by Agaogullari, extremely rare Provenance: Prodromos Mellon collection

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Corbitts auction,sale 154,10 Nov. 2016
Western Thrace - 1912 2pi + 2pi violet postal stationery envelope, large format 213 x 135mm, precancelled by circular negative 'Gumuldjina' handstamp's (2), each struck well in violet. Central file fold but scarce. Michael U8. Sold: 100$




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In this eBay lot but now for 75$ again beause of the cancel a high price.
IRAQ OTTOMAN 1890 FRAGMENT SHOWING ALL ARABIC 'ERBIL' POSTMARK C/W FIG.54

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Edited by perf12 - 10/09/2018 7:17 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
2494 Posts
Posted 10/09/2018   6:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks perf12,

I'd be very pleased to have these in my collection and I expect they're genuine.

Alain Nicolas and Alexandre Galinos's book on the foreign post offices and cancellations is a very useful reference and its illustrations are excellent so a Galinos auction should be a reliable source.

On the left is a stamp used in Candia/Kandiye/Heraklion and the one on the right was used in Hania/Chania.
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Nigel
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Posted 10/09/2018   7:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi perf12,

The cover with the Sitia/Istiye cancellation is a lovely example.

I wonder what it sold for?
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Nigel
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
1352 Posts
Posted 10/10/2018   07:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
sold for 1500 euros
https://www.heinrich-koehler.de/en/...ch-2018-5877

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These forged "T" postage due overprints on stamps of (1901) that never recieved this overprint.

On the right a local post bogus or invented?


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Edited by perf12 - 10/10/2018 08:24 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/10/2018   08:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks perf12
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Nigel
Pillar Of The Community
United States
996 Posts
Posted 10/10/2018   10:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Climber Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12 and nigelc: thanks very much for your outstanding additions to the topic.
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