Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Double Transfers, Re-entries, Plate Varieties In Us Stamps

 
Previous Page | Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3
Valued Member
United States
259 Posts
Posted 02/07/2019   7:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add craigk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see how Scott can price what you are looking for given that cat no's are (supposedly) based on retail values. But what if there isn't a retail value for double tsf's or 3x tsfs? From what I've seen, the expertizing services rarely, if at all, note any tsf's on certs. If you wish to gauge prices, check Siegel. They have offered stamps with significant tsf's that they don't bother to mention in the lot description. In fact, of nearly a quarter million lots sold, the notation 'double tsf' has only been mentioned 1,100 times.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
6090 Posts
Posted 02/07/2019   10:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The PF notes double transfers on any stamp they show up on.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2059 Posts
Posted 02/07/2019   11:19 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
" If for example the variety of the 527 above (which I don't own) would appear in the next edition of Scott, also with dashes only, each collector who sees it would check all of his 527"

No every collector would not check all their 527's. First off most collectors would not notice the new listing, but more importantly, most collectors do not share your interest in such varieties and would not check.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/08/2019   02:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
thank you all again.

about the 527 example:
yes, I meant only those collectors who see it, of course. Those who don't see it wont't look for it, that sounds logical :). So I talk about a collector who has a closer look at the 527 entry in Scott, for whatever reason. I am pretty sure that he will notice the new variety entry, sees the dashes and at least asks himself what this is. It's true that not every collectors looks for varieties, but someone interested especially in the 527 entry will probably have a second look at his 527 stamps (if they are not thousands). And that's my point, that a catalogue can indeed create interest, for the specialised collector, but mainly and also for the beginner who has no knowledge other than the catalogue in front of him.

about Siegel and my topic in general:
I also looked a lot of time for plate varieties in different wordings and spellings at Siegel and did nearly find nothing what I looked for (for example French's variety entries). Most of the time, Siegel sells a stamp which is valuable anyway, and in addition there is "also" a plate variety. And I did not find any lot where French's name appeared in the description (which could be there from time to time normally if the stamp is not listed in Scott).

But my topic is not so much about Siegel and the Expertising services or why the market is so small and that I would like to increase the market.

My topic is more about the missing link between French's book and any other book or research, mainly including Scott.

Did nobody ever ask himself which varieties in French's book are the most important ones? Why most of them are not listed in Scott? What would happen if there was a new constant variety which is not listed in Scott but neither in French?

As said already, in Canada and Australia the collectors' world is excited if there is a new constant variety. In the USA nobody would care perhaps, as few people care which variety in French's book is a rare example of a constant variety. I just don't get the picture why this is this way.

The only explanation that I would have is (see some post above) that there are just way too many varieties in French's book (so in US stamps) that collectors lost their interest. But then I don't understand the value of some varieties listed in Scott and having a great reputation and value.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by stamperix - 02/08/2019 02:39 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
6090 Posts
Posted 02/08/2019   09:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott usually only lists major double transfers. Many of the items listed in French are relatively minor. Most of the higher cat DT's in Scott are on classic issues, or at least before 1925. Of course there are some major DT's that have almost no cat value. It's a vicious cycle, no one looks for them because they have no cat value, and they have no cat value because no one looks for them. Sometimes the color makes them hard to see. Scott 307 has a huge double transfer that is quite scarce, but that orange brown makes it tough to see. If it were in a darker shade that's easy to see it would be pictured in Scott like the 569 DT and would have a significant cat value.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/08/2019   3:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, for the double transfers I begin to understand what is listed in Scott (although there are many double transfers each stamp and Scott just says "double transfer").

But about those errors which are also really obvious and not at all listed in Scott (as the 527 example), I still wonder why. Or why the "recut in hair" in two different 2c stamps has a value difference of more than 2000 USD. Is the cheap one really that common? I did never see one and not find any at auctions.

What would at least help me and other readers of French's book is just: are most of his entries quite scarce while not rare (which I suppose), or most quite common (which I don't think as they are too many and too specialised)?

I am sure there must be entries which just exist in two or three stamps. Why aren't they highlighted or known among US collectors? As I said already, in Canada or Australia everybody knows those kind of stamps.

So what would happen if somebody (probably not me) finds a new constant variety on a BEP stamp? Will anybody care, will it sell for the expensive "recut in hair" price or for the cheap one :) ?

Again, the rule of the stamp market should normally say "rare is rare and is valuable", but for plate varieties in French's book this does not work - would it work in the future for a new find? (were there perhaps such finds in the last 20 years? I don't know any.)

many questions, I know, but I hope to ask them also for other collectors who always have had them.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
4593 Posts
Posted 02/08/2019   3:23 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are expecting consistency and predictability an an arena where neither exist.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/08/2019   3:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is true, but: I am also expecting the US collectors to expect more consistency and predictability in this area - as collectors in many countries do :).
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2059 Posts
Posted 02/09/2019   12:25 am  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"So I talk about a collector who has a closer look at the 527 entry in Scott, for whatever reason. I am pretty sure that he will notice the new variety entry, sees the dashes and at least asks himself what this is. It's true that not every collectors looks for varieties, but someone interested especially in the 527 entry will probably have a second look at his 527 stamps (if they are not thousands). And that's my point, that a catalogue can indeed create interest, for the specialised collector, but mainly and also for the beginner who has no knowledge other than the catalogue in front of him. "

Yes it is true that a new catalog listing (and the editor of the Specialized has expressed some interest in adding some more of the more obvious constant plate varieties, but never finds the time) will create new interest, but it will not happen overnight as the average collector that already has a 527 will not see the new listing as they do not look up things that already have every year and those that do look it up may still not notice the new entry below where the regular stamp is listed.

"Again, the rule of the stamp market should normally say "rare is rare and is valuable"

Again, you are only looking at half the value equation. Rare by and of itself does not mean valuable. You are forgetting the demand half of the equation. Rare and low demand will result in a modest value. Only when demand exceeds supply will the value get high.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/09/2019   03:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you again. I had understood and knew that there is not a huge collector's base or market for the varieties. But also in a small market, the very common things are cheaper than the rare things, of course.

But it's not just the direction of discussion that I planned. I don't want to force anyone to collect plate varieties or to pay much for them. I only searched for information and tried to understand the reasons for the missing link between French's book and any market (or later research).

I accept, of course, that many people don't collect small varieties and also don't want to know more about how and why some varieties have become famous while others didn't and are still some sleepers.

At the end I come back to the thought that in US stamps, especially the BEP period, there were just way too many varieties that they could become interesting to collect or valuable to buy, even if it was a totally new constant variety.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2059 Posts
Posted 02/09/2019   9:17 pm  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The people who specialize in a particular stamp or series are more likely to have an interest in plate varieties (for me it is the Flag over Porch, which has a TON of varieties including lots a constant plate varieties), but the person who seeks plate varieties for one series isn't going to be sharing info with the person who does it for another series, so you don't get a comprehensive build up of comprehensive info.

Back in the day when there were fewer issues released, collectors used to study new sheets and look for plate varieties and it would get published often while the stamps were still in post offices, so you could go into your local PO and if they happened to have sheets from the same plate number you could find one yourself, and perhaps a second that could be traded with another plate variety collector.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/10/2019   10:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I understand that plate varieties are a complicated field of collecting, and many different collecting interests, while not mainstream of course. I also think that it was more popular from 1930-1950. I guess really that French's approach was great but he probably didn't have much support, so he couldn't do all what he wanted to do, and nobody followed in the later years. So we have now the paradox that there are few collectors and few known values just because there are so many known plate varieties. I think many readers of French's book were happy about some kind of rarity factor (as there is for other areas of collecting US stamps, for example cancels). I am sure, if there was this knowledge, some varieties more would be listed in Scott and sold at auctions.

For the time being we can only guess why the one "recut in hair" is expensive while the other is very cheap, or why some errors which are perhaps existing in only 2 stamps are missing in Scott.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
114 Posts
Posted 02/10/2019   4:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mootermutt987 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott has a hard balancing act to do. It is HARD to make a living in the publishing (publishing of ACTUAL books, not internet publishing, although that may be hard, too) industry, so there is pressure to keep entries brief to save on paper. On the flipside, Scott wants to be THE reference catalog for collectors, so they have to do what they do better than anyone else. Also, their market is ALL collectors, not a relatively small portion of collectors. Every new entry that they put in their catalog requires research, as well. Why they include one variety in their catalog, but not another is, at some point, a business decision. I would expect that if there were multiple calls from the public to add an entry, and enough supporting data for a market value, and that their independent research could verify that data, that they would add the entry. I think in the end, there are more forces to keep their entries concise, rather than more complete. They also need to perceive a demand for the entry --- one person writing/calling for that entry is probably not enough.

I absolutely DO believe that a new catalog entry adds to the demand for what's in the entry. They probably don't want to affect the market. I expect they see their role as a market barometer, not market driver.

I say this in all honesty, not to be facetious: if you have questions about what and why they add to their catalog, you should write the editors and ask. Who knows? Maybe you will get an honest, well considered, informative reply.

Why don't others take up the slack and create a catalog of varieties, with values? It would take a TON of commitment and resources. You seem to have the drive and desire. Why don't you? I'm being serious there. Your answer may answer your own question. I know I wouldn't. It sounds like too much work!! I suspect that everyone else that ever considered such a proposition came to the same conclusion.

Why isn't there a bigger market for such varieties in the USA? I don't know. I am a huge fan of flyspecking the 3c and 12c 1851/1855, but there are already plenty of reference materials on these issues. I am not doing any trailblazing. I think most flyspecking USA collectors are similar - they may be interested in these varieties, but only for a few particular issues. The flyspecker interested in all issues and eras is a very rare beast indeed. Probably no more than a handful of collectors, and a handful isn't much of a market. A deeper 'why'? I'm not deep enough to answer.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by mootermutt987 - 02/10/2019 4:28 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
6090 Posts
Posted 02/10/2019   4:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The book already exists. It does not have prices, partly to remain relevant over time, and partly because it would be all but impossible to give any that are meaningful given the market. I like it this way, it makes it possible to find them occasionally.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1300 Posts
Posted 02/11/2019   03:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much, mootermutt987 .

Your post is like a good summary of all my thoughts and what we tried to discuss here. My last post was already a bit written like my last one in this thread, but as your answer was very helpful I want to add some points from my part.

Although I mentioned Scott several times, my idea is not so much to blame Scott and say everything would be fine if they just added some more 50 plate varieties. As you said correctly, there is not enough data in most cases. All my questions (if I asked them correctly in English) should be directed in the problem why in other countries there is much knowledge, also from the "normal" mainstream collectors, about the most important varieties which have very high value. That leads to my second "question tree" why there has never been any quantification or valuation. Again, I am not talking about Scott. If we look at the many cancel books, there is mostly a rarity factor given.

French's book is a great resource and worth even "reading" it without a patient stamp in the hand. He made such an effort and for sure there were many situations when a new variety was discovered where only two or three stamps were known while other varieties are very common. Just: in his book all this data is flat, there is no categorization or valuation at all. He could have just used an asterisk or something to mark the varieties he thought of unusual :).

Because I don't need any detailed prices, as I don't want to sell any plate varieties or get rich from them. I would only be happy to have an idea about which varieties exist in the thousands and which in very few stamps. I am quite sure Loran French would know this for many of his entries, but we can't ask anymore.

To come back to Scott: If there were rarity factors in French's book, more people would use his book, more would look for varieties, more would buy and sell, more would ask Scott why a variety is not listed, more varieties would be listed.

(about my own work for such a book: I am not living in the US, don't have any connections there, and also not enough knowledge, don't even where French had his knowledge, where the old letters or documents from him are and so on, so no chance for me to do any work there, this should be done by any collector, expert or club with more connection to French)
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2019 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.39 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05