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Watermarks On New South Wales Stamps - Share Your Research.

 
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1250 Posts
Posted 05/17/2019   8:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's my first finding from a very modest sample size.

SG 197/8, Scott 47

1864-5 Perf 13 1d red DLR

SG Wmk 27, Scott Wmk 50 (Single lined 1)

Sample size: 18

Comment: 10 of 18 found to have inverted watermarks, others normal upright. Not sorted by shade.
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Valued Member
Australia
233 Posts
Posted 05/17/2019   11:08 pm  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Bobby - the research has begun!

I have a similar size sample of these - I'll have a look what's behind them.
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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1328 Posts
Posted 05/30/2019   2:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bobby and Fair Dinkum, do you know: are there also specialized books for the other colonies that mention watermark varieties and (more or less) their ratio?

The work Bobby did here above is very useful to get an idea for New South Wales, but I wonder about the other colonies.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1250 Posts
Posted 05/30/2019   5:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've never read the book but the Stamps Of Victoria by Kellow is bound to have information not readily available elsewhere.

I'll have a look at Robson Lowe's Australasia volume as soon as I get a chance and will let you know if there is any additional info there.
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Germany
1328 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   03:56 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, will be interesting to know.

By the way, there are not many posts about the watermark varieties in the two new threads here yet, as supposed. I think many people just don't care. I myself don't collect Australia for a long time, just have an old album with some duplicates, some stamps are there many times, some others aren't. So I can't really help much, but I do have a huge pile of the 1d rosine/scarlet SOUTH AUSTRALIA 1876 (SG 179) - seems to have been a common stamp to that time :-).

As I don't want to start another "watermark research" thread about South Australia without answers, I ask here before. I have more than about 500x SG 179 stamps and looked through all of them. I did not find a single stamp with any watermark orientation other than upright.

So this is an interesting case. SG writes that the colonies did not care about the orientation. This can't be true for the SG 179 as I found 500 watermarks upright, 0 sideways, 0 reversed and 0 inverted.

So can SG 179 South Australia be found with watermark inverted, and if yes, wouldn't it have another value than the upright version?
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Edited by stamperix - 05/31/2019 03:57 am
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
804 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   04:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add finches to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stamperix...I follow your logic and YES, anything NOT common usually commands 'slightly' higher values(IMO)
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Germany
1328 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   04:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Those here are still left...they are all on paper and I can't see the watermark. The question is if it's worth soaking all of them... :-)

Has anybody every seen another watermark than upright for this stamp?

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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1250 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   05:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
That's great research stamperix If you do find a watermark on this stamp in any other position I'd say it'd be a rarity.
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Valued Member
Australia
233 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   06:08 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stamperix,
I expect that the research will take some time and members will gradually add their findings on colonial New South Wales stamps here over the years after that great start by Bobby De La Rue.

Your SG 179 South Australia is an early federal period issue (1904) so it was included in the Kangaroos and Early Federal Period Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue (ACSC) 4th Edition, 2004. Inverted watermarks are catalogued for early federal period stamps where they are known to exist.

At the time of issue of that catalogue, inverted watermark was not known to exist on the 1904 12 x 11.5 comb perf, so any discovery of such would indeed be a rarity.

For those who wish to publish their findings on colonial South Australian stamps (issued prior to 1901), I have started a new thread here:
Watermarks On South Australia Stamps - Share Your Research.

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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Edited by fairdinkumstamps - 05/31/2019 06:09 am
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1328 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   06:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you both very much. So I think I will soak them when I have time for that task (those are another hundreds of stamps)...

And about the catalogue: One more lesson of "learning by confusion" :). I did not expect this stamp of a colony to be in the catalogue of Australian Commonwealth. Seems I don't know enough of Australian history. But if all those early federal stamps are included in the ACSC catalogue, many stamps that are listed in SG under the colonies can indeed be looked up for watermark varieties in the ACSC catalogue, I didn't know that.

Two questions to the stamps and stamp book dealer:

I found another catalogue by Brusden White (older) called the ACSC "Australian Colonies", I guess it does not have the detailed information of the colonies' watermark orientations and neither the early federal issues' ones?

Also, I found another catalogue called "Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue", but not by Brusden White but Seven Seas Stamps and also Hawthorn Press, are those the earlier editors of this catalogue and today it's only Brusden White?

Or asked more simply: the watermarks of the early federal issues are just mentioned in the catalogue you named above, if I want the most recent version?
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Edited by stamperix - 05/31/2019 07:00 am
Valued Member
Australia
233 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   08:34 am  Show Profile Check fairdinkumstamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add fairdinkumstamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I found another catalogue by Brusden White (older) called the ACSC "Australian Colonies", I guess it does not have the detailed information of the colonies' watermark orientations and neither the early federal issues' ones?

Also, I found another catalogue called "Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue", but not by Brusden White but Seven Seas Stamps and also Hawthorn Press, are those the earlier editors of this catalogue and today it's only Brusden White?


Although I haven't seen it, the 1990 BW Australian Colonies catalogue (Harry L Bazelmans, edited by Alan J. White) was only 100 pages covering the states from 1850-1910 so I would be surprised if there was much detail about watermark variations in it.

Seven Seas and Hawthorn Press were two of the ACSC publishers prior to Brusden White.

The history of the various ACSC can be seen on this useful website:
History of the Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue

The current Seven Seas Australian Colonies catalogue (still available) is an inexpensive simplified catalogue of the colonial stamps and might be purchased by someone who wants an overview of those stamps without the details of various printings, perfs, watermarks etc.

The AUSTRALIA STAMP CATALOGUE 2019 STANLEY GIBBONS 11TH EDITION is the best catalogue for the Australian colonial issues currently in print but of course does not have all of the watermark variations for the state stamps as they do not have enough reliable information to provide accurate pricing for them. It does, however, provide quite a comprehensive listing of the watermark variations found on the stamps of Western Australia.



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https://www.fairdinkumstamps.com Fair Dinkum Stamps - Specialising in stamps from early Australia and the colonies, Australian philatelic literature, catalogues, stockbooks and accessories.
Edited by fairdinkumstamps - 05/31/2019 09:03 am
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1328 Posts
Posted 05/31/2019   3:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your help about those books.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1250 Posts
Posted 06/01/2019   7:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I had a look at the Lowe book this morning and apart from a few mentions of sideways watermarks (Which are most likely in SG) there was virtually no mention of watermark varieties at all, so not a lot of help there.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
804 Posts
Posted 06/01/2019   8:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add finches to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bobby & FDstamps.. 'please correct if my thoughts are wrong'..Catalogues mention *proven philatelic findings* up until publishing date. This tremendous stamp site, with knowledgeable members is 'almost' as good as time/money spent on catalogues. Knowing late collectors whose Cat's exceeded their entire stamp collection value, dismaying beneficiaries.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1250 Posts
Posted 06/01/2019   8:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If you're going to specialise in a particular area you have to spend good money on reference works. There's just no way around it.

Catalogues such as SG/Scott/Michel etc. can only give you so much information. Indeed, the first book cited in the SG Commonwealth & Empire bibliography is Robson Lowe's 6 volume set, which doesn't cover the whole empire.

See my post about that here: http://goscf.com/t/63062

Considering how old these books are it's a testament to the information contained in them that SG still have them in first place!
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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 06/01/2019 8:57 pm
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