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Imperforate Revenues First Issue: Good Scissors Or Real Deal Collection?

 
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Pillar Of The Community
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6026 Posts
Posted 07/20/2019   10:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If the certificates themselves are deemed nearly worthless after such and such many years, then there should some accountability.

How can there be? The people who looked at a stamp 20 or 30 or 40 years ago have no relationship to the people looking at it today. They might not even still be alive. There is no one who can realistically be held accountable for those decisions. They were made in good faith by those people under the best conditions of the time. If the conditions change, and the people change, then a new opinion might or might not change as well. That is why collectors should study the areas they collect to become as knowledgeable as possible, in order to try as much as possible to prevent potential problems. If you are looking for guarantees for decades old decisions made by other people then you are not being realistic.
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Posted 07/20/2019   10:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add James Drummond to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How can there be?


Because they are officially representing a firm/entity/foundation with their opinions, and not just their own personal, individual opinions.

Therefore it is on the Foundation to warrant their opinions. Or, in this case, not.

I am sorry that you are not understanding my point.

Jim
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Posted 07/20/2019   10:32 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There's a reason that auction houses in general allow any item with a cert older than 5 years to be placed on extension for recerting, and it's not just because of possible changes in condition since it was last expertized.

The details elude me, but I recall talking with "those in the know" about this issue several years ago, and there was a period of time during which either APEX or PSE (I forget which) was sending out U.S. revenue material to an expert that had no business expertizing revenues, and more than a few bogus items went through as legit. I didn't write down the name of the expert at the time, but I should have.

That's another reason why, in my opinion, all expertizing organization should AT MINIMUM allow you to find out upon request who the expertizers were on a given cert. I actually like the old PSE certs of the late 1980s that listed the names of the 3 expertizers on every cert. APEX will tell you who the experts were on any item if you ask. I don't know whether the PF, PSE, or PSAG will currently do the same.
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Posted 07/20/2019   10:33 pm  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Therefore it is on the Foundation to warrant their opinions. Or, in this case, not.


To my knowledge, APEX is the only expertizing body with any kind of financial compensation warranty associated with their opinions.
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Posted 07/20/2019   10:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I understand you point, I just think it is totally unrealistic. By that logic, if you bought a stamp from a Siegel auction when Robert Siegal still owned it, and now you find it is not what they sold it as, you would expect Scott Trepel to refund your money all these decades later. Right.
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Posted 07/20/2019   11:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add James Drummond to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and now you find it is not what they sold it as, you would expect Scott Trepel to refund your money all these decades later. Right


With all due respect, and why the <expletive> not??

Doesn't anyone have any character any more? Or honor? What about doing the "right" thing?

Has civilization so devolved to the point that everyone is simply only out for themselves, and 'screw' the common collector?

In which case, what the he*ck is the point of having a "certification" foundation, if its "results" (or "opinions") are, in the end, basically meaningless (after a few years or so, this 'time' to be arbitrialy decided at random intervals)?

Maybe so, maybe so...

Jim
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Posted 07/21/2019   12:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Apparently it is you that do not understand. A owns a business. You buy from A. A sells the business to A. Decades later you discover A did something wrong, Do you really expect B, who had NOTHING to do with the sale of the item in the first place to refund you money because the former owner A made a mistake decades before??????? And you actually think it dishonorable to not do so?????? What planet are you from?
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Posted 07/21/2019   12:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
All of the certifying bodies are selling opinions and nothing more. There success relies on trust by their clients in both the bodies competency and honesty. Revcollector is expressing an opinion and nothing more. There is no evidence that Rev is correct in his opinion or doubt of an opinion. There is no downside for Rev being wrong other then embarrassment perhaps. The PF has a great deal at stake when issuing their opinions especially on high value items. If enough of their certificates were overturned or publicly questioned it would be catastrophic for the PF as well the stamp market in general since so much money and good faith has been invested based upon the rendered opinions. It is no small matter. I believe this is much ado about nothing. Jim's stamp is just fine. Is there the possibility of a problem? Of course there is. Is it likely? No the person or persons that certified the stamp are irrelevant. The transaction is between the PF and the customer and the customer does not dictate terms to the PF. The thing here is that people get to play expert in a forum and cast all kinds of doubt and negativity and then forget about it and move on to another topic. It seems as if there are personal opinions and feelings at play here that have more to do with doubting the certificate than any real facts. The stamps in the Siegel census have been traded over the years and will continue to be traded without the sky falling because they are accepted as genuine probably in many cases by people that are much more knowledgeable than Rev and are putting their money on the line. Great stamp. Use the PF all of the time and always will.

I have noticed that there are folks that live to be contrarians. It is there nature and there oxygen. Not on the forum of course.
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Posted 07/21/2019   12:54 am  Show Profile Check eyeonwall's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add eyeonwall to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
"No the person or persons that certified the stamp are irrelevant"

Are you serious?
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640 Posts
Posted 07/21/2019   08:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revenuermd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Two comments on this thread.

1. The problem of altered stamps on the first issue was one of the reasons I stopped collecting the First Issue two plus decades ago. Yes, I still have a few, many of which are on document or medicine packages.
2. Recently Eric Jackson and I taught a course on Scott-listed revenues at the APS Summer Seminar. A significant portion of the course was devoted to the landmines that one encounters, i.e., first issue altered stamps and the proprietary roulettes of c. 1880.

If you collect first issue you must go out and get educated. There is no substitute for handling the material, which Eric included in our course at APS Summer Seminar. After examining the material and the presentation of what to look for, students were given a number of examples to examine on their own and they had to determine whether they were genuine or altered. If altered, they had to identify the reasons for suspecting it was altered. Mostly the reasons that our experts here on Stamp Community Forum point out. But this was a safe way to practice on real live examples. There is no substitute for working and handling the stamps themselves. The expense of the trip to Bellefonte was well worth the price to build the skills needed to collect the First Issue intelligently.
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Ron Lesher
Edited by revenuermd - 07/21/2019 08:03 am
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Posted 07/21/2019   08:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Why are the color shades and impressions/paper possibly different for imperforate revs versus their perforated siblings? Did post office use different paper and different color dies over the years for these issues? I was not aware of this but I guess it makes sense. Are the imperforates usually poorer impression, duller, than their perforated counterparts.? Are the imperforates on thinner paper?

I would thought sheets of stamps were made from same process, and later on they just went to perforator. I understand a late cancel as being problematic (although using a stamp 4-5 years later is not out of question)

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Posted 07/21/2019   09:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Post Office has nothing to do with first issue revenues, which were printed by Butler & Carpenter of Philadelphia. And we are talking about early 1860's era paper, which was coming from multiple sources. Imperf and part perf first issues are among the earliest issued, this came about because there were serious problems with the perforating machines. They were from Europe, and there were many adjustment problems due in part to the fact that there are 10 different sizes of first issue revenues. So the decision was made to send them out unfinished (imperf) or half finished (part perf). the reason shade and impression matter is because often few were printed and issued imperf or part perf and all were on one batch of paper.
Just to make this clear, I have been studying first issue revenues for 49 years. My mentor all these years is the head expert at the PF, who has been collecting first issues exclusively for 56 years now.
So if I think there are possible reasons for wondering about a first issue it is not simply being a "contrarian" as someone here with far less knowledge of these issues has stated. It is because this is an often faked stamp and area, and there were common everyday problems with the production that make it almost impossible in many cases to tell enough from a scan. Simply having four reasonable margins is NOT enough proof. There are other very important factors involved.
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Valued Member
United States
229 Posts
Posted 07/21/2019   09:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rwoodennickel to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jim, sounds like another Back of Book give away, sigh.
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Thanks,
Robert
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Posted 07/21/2019   09:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds like the "head expert" needs to get involved since PF certs are being called into question.
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Posted 07/21/2019   09:26 am  Show Profile Check revenuecollector's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add revenuecollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Oh please. Certs from ALL expertizers, especially older certs, are constantly undergoing scrutiny and being questioned... as they should be.

Blind acceptance should be discouraged. Do your own due diligence.
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