Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

Us #1 And #2 On Covers - Expertize

 
Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member
Learn More...
397 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I collect covers for a collection with its focus on correspondence and history relating to a specific topic of interest of mine, rather than mainly the philatelic significance of the items. Over time I have acquired the following from reputable dealers and was wondering whether to get them expertized by PF when I visit the APS stamp show in Omaha.

Are there folks out there who are more experienced than I am in the philatelic aspects of covers (which means just about everyone)who can opine on the apparent authenticity of these, including such things as whether the stamps are properly tied to the covers and whether the stamps were used in the appropriate time period, etc.? Also would it be worth expertizing any of them? At some point in the future when I liquidate the collection to (in all probability) folks who have no interest in my specialty but who might want them for their cover collection, I'd like to make them as appealing as possible.

Thanks as always for your help.





Send note to Staff

Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
4226 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:32 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Not answering your question, but some items in this forthcoming sale may interest you or others

https://www.warwickandwarwick.com/a...gue?save=yes
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
596 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
OOD, since you have the concern about their authenticity, it might be worth spending a little money to have them expertized and authenticated. I believe there are two main places to do this, one is the American Philatelic Society's expertizing service and the other is the Philatelic Foundation. There may be others, as well. The fee for each is not trivial, so this generally done for more expensive items and these may not be all that expensive. Not sure. Give it some thought and see if it's worth it to you.

I have no expertize but only 60 years of stamp collecting "experience". But they certainly don't scream "fake" to me. They look authentic. If they were used at the proper time -- after they were issued in 1847, of course -- and show proper usage and don't have stamps added later, and so on, they should be fine. Many old postmarks do not include the year, so dating them often requires access to the enclosure or a receiving date (on the back sometimes) or some such thing. But even if they were used years later, they'd still be legitimate.

The 10c is a long-distance rate (over 500 miles?) so it would be useful to know where it was sent from, but I cant' read that postmark.

Postmarks should match both on the stamp and the cover. To my non-expert eye, these seem to match.

FYI: Wikipedia says "Professor Kingsley" was treasurer of Yale College in the 1860s for awhile, if I have the right person. I wonder if that's too early for this cover's usage? There was an "Albie" Booth who played football for Yale in the 1920s (!), but this "Albert" doesn't show up on a Google search, and he might very well have been a student. It might be interesting to know what "J.J. Stuart & Co." (as I read it) did.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by DrewM - 07/22/2019 4:47 pm
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The covers from New York and Philadelphia probably do not need certs to sell (the 5c stamp looks like a tiny wrinkle they might call). However, the Hartford use needs a PF cert before you try to sell. I would not purchase it based on what I see.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by Richard Frajola - 07/22/2019 4:48 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
948 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1847 Cover Census - https://www.uspcs.org/resource-cent...over-census/
Your covers are:
ID 21587
ID 21496
ID 11884

Provenance is listed for each. Nothing to worry about with these. Save your money.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
596 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   4:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see a New York usage, a Bridgeport usage, and one that's unreadable, the 10c. Is that "the Hartford" use, and if so how can you tell? (Just checked the "census" of these covers noted above, and it says the 10c cover was sent from Philadelphia, but how they know that, I don't understand).

Also, what do you see? ("I would not purchase it based on what I see".)

I had no idea there was a "census" of these covers. That's amazing. I don't have any such covers but I guess I need to pay more attention, anyway.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by DrewM - 07/22/2019 4:59 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
948 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   5:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 10c cover has a Philadelphia Pa. 10c postmark.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   5:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Richard Frajola to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Bridgeport - sorry. I don't like what appears to be two different colors of cancels and the blob at right side that does not appear to tie the stamp.

I would not buy it as genuine .... somebody else might.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
397 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   6:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Appreciare all the information from everyone.

Geoff - appreciate the tip for that auction.

Drew - there was a different Kingsley who was a professor of Latin at Yale until 1851 - from other info I have, this letter appears to be have been sent in 1848 to that fellow. The date of the Albert Booth letter also appears to be 1848, but he is obviously not the Albie Booth of football. There was a minister of that name who graduated from Yale in 1850. Haven't figured out whether these two are related.

Richard - The one about which I was most skeptical is the 5 cent with the Bridgeport postmark for the reasons that you cite. I sprung for it anyway because of the addressee and contents of the enclosed letter which fit into my specialty collection. The writer asks about trigonometry, which is why I assume there is that little diagram under the postmark.

The 10 cent letter is from Philadelphia in 1851 per a return address. I know very little detail about historical postal rates in that era, so no idea why it needed a 10 cent stamp (if it did).

chip - that is an astounding resource - thanks for bringing it to my attention. I was in the process of leaving the USPCS since it seemed to be a more advanced and specialized society given where I am in the hobby, but I think I'll rejoin to help support resources like this.

Again, many thanks to all of you for the great information.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
397 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   6:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am still thinking about submitting these to be certified even if it will cost a little bit. I'm intrigued to find out what the PF and their experts have to say about these pieces. Will let you know what the results are if I proceed.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2014 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   9:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
USPCS dues for one year are less than the cost of a single certificate and worth far more IMHO.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
United States
403 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   10:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add codehappy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rarely do you see these on a cover faked from whole cloth; the more common fraud to watch out for is a #1/#2 with faults not visible from the front (shallow thins, etc.) added to a cheap stampless cover of the correct period (adhesive stamps were not mandatory for the first few years) to conceal the faults and make the stamp much more salable.

Usually on these fakes, the stamps are untied or only tied by pen or generic grid/geometric cork cancels (messy ones, if required to obscure an original cancel). The stamp might also be covering a postage paid/due marking from the original stampless cover; if you look at the cover's front from the back, with a light source behind, it might show through the paper.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1539 Posts
Posted 07/22/2019   10:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Then, the Bridgeport cover should be the first candidate for a cert. Still, the partial grid strike looks to match very well and its color on the stamp matches the second heavy strike from what I can see. As ever, without seeing this in person, it's hard to be definitive. I don't know what the PF can add besides saying genuine or not, although you might ask for confirmation of the plating of the #2.

10c rate to Philadelphia: If over 1/2 oz., it's a double rate cover.

Good on you for continuing support of USPCS. Even a donation rather than full membership might be the ticket.

chipg wrote:

Quote:
Provenance is listed for each.

Either I'm not finding that info or you are using the term "provenance" incorrectly. Being on the census list does not constitute provenance, particularly if Oracle submitted the listing.

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by hy-brasil - 07/22/2019 10:45 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
948 Posts
Posted 07/23/2019   08:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add chipg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Re: Census Provenance

Click on the listing and you'll see an expanded description as well as any other scans. Here's the text for the Bridgeport cover:
-----------------------
ID #: 21496
DATE: 12/27/18xx
FROM CITY: Bridgeport
FROM STATE/COUNTRY: CT
TO CITY: New Haven
TO STATE/COUNTRY: CT
ADDRESSEE: Albert Booth
SCOTT #: 1
PF NUMBER:
FAKE:
QTY OF #1: 1.0
QTY OF #2:
BISECT:
OTHER STAMPS:

Lot 148 Bridgeport Ct. Dec 27, Red pmk., matching Grids tie 5c Dark Brown (la), Three Ample to Large Margins, close at B., Beautiful Impression & Color, on Folded Letter to Yale College, Geometric sketch affects part of pmk., Fine. (Photo) E.XII

Robert A. Siegel Auction Galleries, Inc. Sale 622 realized 425

Not listed in Alexander

Regency Superior sale 110 lot 2630 realized 170

The Yale class of 1850 lists Albert Booth, son of Samuel C. Booth of East Windsor, Conn. Albert became a Methodist minister.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
United States
410 Posts
Posted 07/23/2019   08:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Curious, since you have mentioned it twice in this thread without elaboration, what, if not the covers or adhesives themselves, is your specialty interest?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Valued Member
Learn More...
397 Posts
Posted 07/23/2019   09:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Oracle of Delphi to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Covers, correspondence, postcards, memorabilia and other artifacts relating to my alma mater Yale University. Overlaps a bit with my regular stamp and cover collecting.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2019 Stamp Community Forums
It took 1.16 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05