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Two 10A Stamps In "Bright" Orange Brown Do Not Match

 
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Posted 09/18/2019   8:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Philazilla to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have two stamps, both reportedly from Bill Amonette (the 10/11 color expert). I acquired them from two different places, both identified as "Bright Orange Brown," (a rare shade), and they are definitely not the same shade.

The lighter colored one came with one of his notes that says "#10 VF 61L1E SUPER COLOR BRIGHT ORANGE BROWN #10 VF 61L1E with margins all around close and just clear at the top. SUPER color as bright post office fresh orange brown as you will ever find, Neat CDS cancel. This rare color as intense bright orange brown as I have ever seen only from plate 1E. 10519a" (Note: this is an 10A - the 10/10A split had not been made when Bill Amonette wrote his note./)

The darker one is from one of his color charts which I have a copy, and I can confirm that it is the same stamp. It is plated as 33L1E.

I'm going to send these to the PF, but I am curious if there are any informed opinions here about the difference in these stamps. Both were scanned by me on the same scanner with the same settings.

A few possibilities:
- The stamp with a note is not actually the stamp Bill described.
- The stamps changed colors since Bill identified the shades.
- This "shade" comes in a wide range of shades
- I have misinterpreted the note that says "Intense bright orange brown" as maybe a different shade.
- Identifying shades is a fool's errand.




A copy of the relevant color chart:

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Edited by Philazilla - 09/18/2019 8:36 pm

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Posted 09/18/2019   8:51 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Environmentally susceptible ink, as your stamps nicely illustrate.
Don
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
They are 160 years old, do we really expect nothing will change since printing?
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Stallzer, the issue at hand is not whether the stamps have changed in the last 160 years. The question is why are two stamps both likely identified in the last 20 years as a particular shade by the same person, clearly so different?
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Edited by sinclair2010 - 09/18/2019 9:23 pm
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would certainly expect changes since printing, but I guess these stamps were identified as the same shade less than 10 years ago. I do not think the same stamp would diverge this much in 10 years unless one was abused, and I doubt that's the case.
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think the darker stamp has probably changed since Amonette made the chart, no idea what color it actually was to begin with. It may have been close to his current idea of what bright OB looked like but remember how I told you those charts were made.
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think the darker stamp has a snowballs chance at the PF.

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Posted 09/18/2019   9:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Philazilla to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just checked and the chart is dated March 2009.
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ya know when I posted that I told myself 10 times that it wasn't going to come across as intended but yet I didn't edit it. The post was to be meant more along the lines of over the last 160 years these 2 particular stamps have most probably been on 2 entirely different journeys. One could have been stored properly for the last 100 years while the other might have changed hands and storage methods dozens of times. So I guess I was too lazy to simply type what Don did......apologies.
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Posted 09/18/2019   9:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You might consider giving the second stamp a peroxide treatment.
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Posted 09/19/2019   02:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that the second stamp looks oxidized.
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Edited by hy-brasil - 09/19/2019 02:43 am
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Posted 09/19/2019   09:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
the term I was taught was sulpherized and a peroxide treatment would help. in my opinion all shade listing should be dropped from the catalogs unless they are know to have been changes in the composition of the ink used, or officially approved. don has the right of it and 160 years from now they will all be the same if anyone still is around to collect.
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Posted 09/19/2019   10:10 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Technically it is 'sulphurization', but commonly called 'oxidation'. Many folks think that a stamp must come in contact with something to make it become sulpherized but it actually only needs to be exposed to atmospheric conditions where sulfur dioxide is floating around. Common home sources for sulfur dioxide in the air are tobacco smoke, gas appliances, oil furnaces, kerosene heaters, wood or coal stoves, automobile exhaust from attached garages. The process can occur quickly.

http://stampsmarter.com/learning/Ho...idation.html

Don
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Posted 09/19/2019   10:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bud to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Trying to determine shades of color on stamps makes my head hurt. And other body parts, too. I stand in awe of people who can reliably do this.
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Posted 09/19/2019   10:33 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bud,
Agreed, colors are one of the most challenging parts of the hobby. I would smack every catalog publisher who used color to ID stamps upside the head with a trout if I could.

While there were most assuredly color variations in the ink batches used at time of stamp printing, the issue of determining them post-production and with eyeballs is almost impossible for most collectors.

One day hopefully a non-destructive chemical analysis will help us truly understand the inks without the subjective perspective we have today.
Don
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Posted 09/19/2019   11:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
don I would use an asian carp or or other destructive invasive species......
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