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Question On Plate Proofs On Cardboard

 
 
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Posted 09/26/2019   01:29 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add mestephil to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I am trying to read up a bit on proofs and understand that a plate proof on cardboard is really a plate proof on India paper that is pressed against the plate with a cardboard backing, and the paper fuses to the cardboard backing.

Now assuming I did not screw that up, is it known if sometimes the India paper will separate from the cardboard backing? Or in my case, do I have a P3 that somebody tried to pass off as a P4, because they could say it was rarer?

Regardless of the response, it is still a bit cool to me as I got it for a fairly reasonable price, but I am a novice with proofs (and essays) and got a lot of learning to do.

Thanks,

Ken
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Posted 09/26/2019   07:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Although proofs are known to exist in many varied styles, those listed below are the most common:

Large die proofs were printed on paper about the size of the engraver's die block, 40 millimeters by 50mm, or larger. Margins often show the imprint, letters and numbers of the original contract printers. In the United States these large die proofs usually were printed on India paper and mounted on cards. Those with the engraver's name or an official approval designation are highly valued.

Small die proofs have extremely narrow margins, seldom larger than 3mm to 5mm in width. Approximately 300 types were printed for 85 album sets prepared by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing in 1904. These are found on a fibrous, white wove paper. Another special printing of 413 different small die proofs was made for the 1915 Panama-Pacific Exposition. These were produced on a soft, yellowish wove paper, and are extremely scarce.

Plate proofs are found on both India paper and card stock. They were made from finished plates and are excellent impressions, showing a sharpness and color far superior to the stamps themselves.

Hybrid proofs are really plate proofs of all issues prior to 1894. They have been cut to shape and pressed onto large cards to resemble the large die proofs.

Card proofs are printed on high-quality, clear white card stock, which can vary in thickness.

India paper proofs are on a thin, soft, opaque paper, which wrinkles when wet. This paper also varies in thickness and shows particles of bamboo. Strangely, India paper was developed in China in the 18th century, and was once referred to as "China paper".
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Posted 09/26/2019   07:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
yes the india paper will occasionally separate from the cardstock backing. the few I have seen over the years present a mottled appearance of both the impressions, most noticeable on the card impression due to the india taking up most of the ink. a photo of the item in question would help, and I am sure there are more knowledgeable people out there than me to answer this more fully.
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Posted 09/26/2019   08:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The plate proofs on india were printed with a card backing as the paper was too thin to go through the presses. A true plate proof on india will show white india fibers. The plate proofs on india are contemporary to the printing process and used to determine if the plates were correct.
The plate proofs on card were done at a later time for collectors.
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Posted 09/26/2019   8:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mestephil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the responses. Here are images of the proof. Firs the front image, then the back of surface of the india paper, and last the front of the cardboard surface. You can see a bit of a ghost image on the cardboard.

Thanks,

Ken






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Posted 09/26/2019   11:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have a complete collection of the 19th century card proofs. These are printed directly on the thin card, and are not India proofs impressed on card. Those are what is referred to as hybrid proofs.

The card proofs were a USPOD product which was sold to collectors, in five (some say six) different printings. Greg Vaupotec wrote a series of articles which described how these five different printings could be identified by the thickness of the card. This is still debated as to the veracity of this methodology.

The clarity of printing of these card proofs, and the price vs an unused stamp of the same design, is what initially drew me to collect these card proofs.

I created a document which shows all of these, along with collateral information, which I will be willing to share with anyone interested. Please PM me so I can send you the requisite files. These are in Word format and cannot be uploaded here.

Below are a selection of the proofs from this collection.



























Note that all of the key items in a collection of card proofs are shown here. These include the elusive 70P4, which was only issued in one of the five printings, Scott 190 and 193, of which there was only one sheet of stamps printed. Each of these was initialled by James Lee prior to breaking up the sheet. Then there is the absolute key, Scott 212P4. The high values of some of the issues are shown, as well as the high values of the State Department issues.

These were sold by the USPOD to collectors, as previously stated, in a series of five, possibly six sales. The envelopes in which there were placed have five distinctive fonts/types of envelopes. I'm still working to obtain all the envelopes. Here are a few examples of those envelopes.









Again, if you would like a copy of the word document which I produced and printed for my local club, please PM me and I'll gladly share this with you.

As an aside, the remaining area of card proofs, which I am working to complete is the revenue card proofs. I will need 17 of the first issues and the majority of the Match & Medicine card proofs. Once I have all of those, the collection will truly be complete.

Yes, there are three card proofs for the 2 cent Trans-Mississippi issue. These were a separate iteration which were not available to the collecting public and I feel these are outside the scope of a collection of card proofs of the 19th century. Just putting it out there.
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Posted 09/27/2019   12:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mestephil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Well, Stampman, I'd PM you if I could but the system says I am too new and not entitled to "email" you when I try to enter a message. I may be missing something in how to PM.

One thing I do want to point out about the proof I uploaded is that it was indicated to be a 150P4. Scott only has the 150P3 listed, not the P4. So I am wondering if what I have is misidentified. It is of a 150, but....

Thanks,

Ken
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Posted 09/27/2019   12:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
mestephil, as soon as you have 60 posts, you'll be able to PM me. Don't worry, I'll respond when you do.

If there is no listing for a 150P4, you either have a 150P3 or a hybrid of the India proof, die sunk on card. Here's an example of a hybrid, in a revenue issue, not known to have been created as a P4. Note in the bottom of the revenue there is a small sliver missing, indicating that it is a hybrid P3 on card.


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Posted 09/27/2019   01:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mestephil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stampman -

Yup, you are confirming what I was suspecting, but was not educated enough in the topic to figure it out yet. I think it is as you say, a 150P3 or a hybrid. It is a little disappointing, but not a lot as I am learning about this. It will still have a special place in my collection as my first proof.

I finally found out about the email system and how it works, and you can bet I will be back when I reach 60 posts. This is a fascinating topic.

Thanks,

Ken
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Posted 09/27/2019   01:16 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mestephil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
By the way, you have a fantastic proof collection! And thanks for the advice!!

Ken
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Posted 09/27/2019   04:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add redwoodrandy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
50 posts.
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Posted 09/27/2019   07:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
James Lee's website:

http://www.jameslee.com
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Posted 09/27/2019   12:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply



Here is a 44P1 hybrid large die proof.

This is an India Plate proof, cut to shape, and matted onto an India paper mat, then mounted on card, and inserted into a salesman's sample book.
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Posted 10/12/2019   01:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GregAlex to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A little more info on the "hybrid" proofs. These are known by other names: French India proof, Chine Colle, and Chine Applique. The process used a thin, fine paper laid over an inked plate and trimmed to the exact size of the plate. A small amount of adhesive was usually applied to the backing paper (card stock), sandwiching the India paper between plate and backer before being put through the press. The result is a finer rendering of the printed lines in the softer, absorbent India paper now bonded to the card stock.

Here's an example of a French India vignette proof, mostly adhered to its backer.

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Posted 10/13/2019   2:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ericjackson to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The 2c Bank Check proof discussed earlier is not a hybrid proof. It is simply a plate proof, india paper on card (Scott R6P3), as it was manufactured by Butler & Carpenter, the printers of the First Issue revenue stamps. The india paper on these proofs is thin and brittle, which accounts for the small flaw at the bottom of the illustrated item.

A hybrid proof is a plate proof which has been removed from the card backing and affixed to a larger card to resemble a die proof.

A number of the First Issue revenue plate proofs exist on both india paper (P3) and directly on card (P4). The india paper plate proofs were printed with a card backing and some have fallen off over time. Others will never come off the card without damage and there is no reason to attempt to remove them.

Once you are familiar with First Issue plate proofs, it is easy to distinguish between those that are india paper on card (P3)from those that are on card (P4). The colors of those that exist both ways are generally different and card thicknesses are different. The india paper on card proofs are noticeably thicker than those printed directly on card.

Hope this helps.
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Posted 10/13/2019   10:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stampman2002 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Eric, thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.
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