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Question For The Experts - Perforations On Small Queens

 
 
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Canada
51 Posts
Posted 10/04/2019   3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Lars714 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Rookie question and reading through this forum's archive I know this has been discussed many times...

Has anyone generated a Perforation frequency occurrence or population distribution of the small queens? I have perf'd several thousand 3 cents SQs (they are nice and inexpensive) and found that gauging to 0.1 is fairly easy. But - then I wonder about paper shrinkage, dry and wet printings, etc, and wonder if I am wasting my time (what amount of measurements errors are occurring )

I've seen some excellent advice fm the experts about calibration of the Perf gauge w micrometers, in order to standardize our Perf measurement efforts. Done that and happily mine is right on.

So, long story short, has anyone generated a 0.1 Perf measurement chart for the SQs? The Unitrade chart seems to come up short...
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Posted 10/04/2019   4:09 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion perfs are rounded or averaged for a reason.

Try this...
Soak a damaged stamp in clear, cool water. Take it out of the bath and use your micrometer to gauge the perfs. Then dry the stamp in the oven (obviously low heat) to drive all moisture out of the stamp. Once it is bone dry get your micrometer and gauge it again. You will be surprised at just how much of a delta there can be given the RH and the related moisture content of the paper.

And then of course you have the issue with slightly misaligned or bent perf pins at time of manufacture. If 9 of the perfs on one side of the stamp are x.x but remaining two are x.y, what do you call it?

Don

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France, Metropolitan
2284 Posts
Posted 10/04/2019   4:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think Don is right.Perfs are not molecular science.Why do people collect this stuff….?
https://www.danoah.com/microscope-postage-stamp

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3051 Posts
Posted 10/04/2019   4:45 pm  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Jack Forbes put together a Small Queen stamp perforation chart with 0.1 gauging. It is in his BNAPS booklet on Small Queens titled "Colours, Shades and Perforations as seen on Blocks of Canada's Small Queens Era, with Cancellation Commentary". His charts can be seen in the following:

http://www.bnaps.org/hhl/newsletter...-10-w037.pdf

http://www.bnaps.org/hhl/newsletter...-12-w038.pdf
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Edited by jogil - 10/04/2019 5:23 pm
Valued Member
United States
393 Posts
Posted 10/04/2019   4:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wtcrowe to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
jogil has given you one place to look. I would also check out the back issues of the BNAPS journal. All but the last 5 or so years are available to non-members on their web site.
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Canada
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Posted 10/04/2019   5:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lars714 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agree - but the "collectibility" of odd perforation measurement drives the conversation. And I think I will try the wet vs dry experiment to see what the delta is. Interesting experiment... thanks for the responses
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Posted 10/06/2019   07:20 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The Canada stamp perforation gauge put together by Brian Cannon is very helpful.

Having mint multiples like blocks makes it easier to determine the gauge of the perforations better.

With regards to the perforation chart by Jack Forbes, he only used many mint multiples from his collection which are hard to find.
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Edited by jogil - 10/06/2019 08:23 am
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Posted 10/06/2019   08:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add archerg to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi

I don't know of any such statistical perf analysis, but I can offer a few caveats.

Many different perforators were used during the thirty year life of the issue. They were all wet printed, and into the billions. You will find certain of the myriad of shades correlate with specific perfs, but will find outliers in every period.

If you're interested in a fine primer on the Small Queens, the late John Hillson contributed a very good summary to the RPSC (Royal Philatelic Society of Canada) website.
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Posted 10/06/2019   08:21 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Before the BABNC Canada Large and Small Queens (1868-1896) which ranged from 11.5 to 12.5 in gauge, Canada ABNC stamps (1858-1867) had a range from 11.75 to 12.1 gauge. Both used perforators made by the same U.S. company that had a connection to ABNC.
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Edited by jogil - 10/06/2019 08:26 am
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Posted 10/06/2019   11:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rootiepatootie to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is getting into something that I have long had an issue with, Mirco scanning of stamps to try and get varieties. I'll be blunt here, that's all BS, at what point do you call enough, enough ? Next thing that's going to happen is, some people will get an Electron Microscope and claims of Varies will come out of the Ying Yang, nothing one could ever see with the naked eye or even an average magnifying glass, say 4x. So, as I asked, when is enough, enough ??? This isn't just in reference to Perf's it's about the whole thing, the Stamp
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Edited by rootiepatootie - 10/06/2019 1:08 pm
Valued Member
Canada
51 Posts
Posted 10/06/2019   12:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lars714 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rootie

You aren't the only person that has expressed frustration with the over-analysis of perforations, especially from an era where perforation variance due to machinery and human capabilities in an era before 'quality assurance'.

For me, I simply study this issue of perf counts, not to ascertain new varieties, but to confirm to myself whether or not a 0.1 gradation is realistic (due to these variabilities) or whether I should stick to a 1/4 (0.25) perf gradation. I have seen several sites that use .05 measurements, but from my studies, this exactness produces unreliable/indefensible results.

I guess I will say enough to myself when I get the answer I am seeking ;)

Sorry to be annoying.

Chris



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Posted 10/07/2019   06:30 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
There are instances where a tenth of a perforation (0.1) is known to mark the difference between two different types of perforators used.

Canada coils line perforated 8 (7.95) from 1912 to 1930 were perforated by a rotary wheel perforator.
Canada coils line perforated 8 (7.85) from 1935 to 1948 were perforated by a rotary bar perforator.

Canada sheet and booklet stamps line perforated 12 (11.95) from 1862 to 1967 were perforated by rotary wheel perforators.
Canada sheet and booklet stamps line perforated 12 (11.85) from 1962 to 1974 were perforated by L-perforators.

Canada sheet and booklet stamps line perforated 11 (10.95) from 1930 to 1935 were perforated by rotary wheel perforators.
Canada sheet and booklet stamps line perforated 11 (10.85) from 1968 to 1978 were perforated by L-perforators.

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Edited by jogil - 10/07/2019 06:31 am
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United States
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Posted 10/10/2019   4:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The problem (not only with perfs but also with color) is exacerbated by catalogues (and therefore dealers) deciding to assign separate numbers and values based on finer and finer distinctions. There are now Scott numbers with small letters down to o and p, often citing qualitative differences that are extremely hard to detect and distinguish or, as in the case of color, are highly subjective. On the one hand, the challenge can add interest to collecting. Yet at some point one does wonder (at least I do) whether a pursuit of ever-finer distinctions doesn't inject into the hobby a depressing element of futility.
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Canada
51 Posts
Posted 10/11/2019   12:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Lars714 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As I learn more about the 3c small queens, I realize that I really can't do a good job at colour matching. I have a gibbons colour deck, which doesn't really help, and of course computer monitors do not properly represent colours, so beside the obvious vermillion, I need to rely on other indicators for classifying.

I have pretty much realized that 0.1 perf gradation is as good as it gets, even then it seems +/- .1 is the answer. There are stamp size variances of about 0.3 mm in the size of the design, so if the die size is constant, there is a paper or printing variance that could account for up to 0.4 or 0.5 (I checked about 200 stamps to find this size variance). So, how de we use perfs to classify - certainly need the other indicators mentioned frequently in other articles and posts.

Oh well, still very interesting-
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United States
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Posted 10/11/2019   1:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
For the 3c small queens I gave up trying to distinguish the ever-increasing list of colors that Scott names. Color guides were no help. I can't even imagine what some of those named colors look like, let alone tell them apart on stamps this old. For now I just keep all my 3c small queens together. Sure, there are color differences, but are they intentional? And what exact name does each deserve? How exactly are those names chosen? And catalogues of other countries use different color names or don't count the same number of variants. A hopeless pursuit.
As for perfs: I agree that 0.1 is about as accurate as we can get, or need. Anything finer seems both burdensome and pointless. There could be many reasons for still smaller differences, as well noted above. And would they indicate a true variant? Or just be a manifestation of inevitable, more or less random variation? For me 0.15 and 0.17 are close enough to be counted the same, at least for my collecting sanity.
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3051 Posts
Posted 10/16/2019   07:49 am  Show Profile Check jogil's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jogil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
While perforation gauges that use lines rather than dots such as the Stanley Gibbons "Instanta" can allow for a larger amount of different finer in between gauge readings, sometimes one can also get a slightly different reading for the exact same side of the same stamp on each different try which can be frustrating.

A specialized perforation gauge that uses dots instead of lines can be helpful such as the "Kiusalas" Canada gauge if those dotted rows of lines are based on the perforating equipment used rather than just being each 1/2 or 1/4 of a perforation per row.

A specialized Canada line perforation gauge that is based on the perforating wheels used was put together by Brian Cannon. It can gauge those line perforations that have been found to be in between or outside of the "Kiusalas" Canada gauge.
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Edited by jogil - 10/16/2019 07:51 am
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