Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

National Bank Note Grill Types On Peru Stamps

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar Of The Community

Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/20/2019   12:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

the 1c 1867 with Z grill is one of the most expensive stamps in the world while nobody seems to care about Peruvian grills. I searched for a while now here on SCF and in the internet and found nearly no information about them, only that there were three types made by National beginning 1874. Maybe a Spanish-language search would help more, but I am not sure.

What I would like to know:

- what is the exact size of the three grill types, in points not in mm?
- is there any catalogue or internet file that shows which stamps came in which types?

(I know that probably there has not been much research about this, but this does not mean that the grills of Peru won't be a popular item of collecting in some years. While it is possibe that we will never now exactly which equipment National used when, we know indeed if a certain grill on a certain stamp appears more often or not.)
Send note to Staff
Edited by stamperix - 10/20/2019 3:43 pm

Pillar Of The Community
United States
1287 Posts
Posted 10/21/2019   12:38 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
No Z grills on Peru stamps. I have accumulated a substantial quantity of Peru grill stamps. However, I won't be able to answer the question until sometime next month. Have you checked the web?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/21/2019   02:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. Yes, I looked here in the forum and in the web. This is all information I found:

essayk mentions the regular issues as similar to H grill, 13x15 points:
http://goscf.com/t/42698&whichpage=2#367360

Russ gives the sizes in mm: 10x12mm, 9-14mm, 11x15.5mm
http://goscf.com/t/23072#201400

The smallest grill is sometimes called a Z grill as the ridges are horizontal, it appears probably only on the postage dues, but all this is not research but just opinions I found somewhere some time ago. For sure, the Peruvian Z grill is too small to be a real Z grill. But in general my thoughts don't only go to the Z grill, it was just a nice introduction above, I am interested in knowing more about all Peruvian grills.

I don't find information about grills here:
http://www.peru-philatelic-study-circle.com/

The only information I found was an interesting PDF talking about the issues, and very little also about the grills:
https://p10.secure.hostingprod.com/...987-1992.pdf

On page 40 a grill is mentioned with 10.5x15.5mm and 14x12 "squares" (=points) which is not a correct correlation. I don't find any other size information and so no grill type description there.

I saw some discussion on the Philamercury board but with no result about the types, their point size and especially their distribution over time and stamps, it was more about the history of the contract and that perhaps Peru wanted "embossed" stamps, not grilled. Also, that perhaps there were 2 new grillers for Peru, not the old ones (which stayed at National but were probably retooled), only the H griller of National probably was used - maybe, maybe not, depending on what one believes about early and late states. An interesting information there was this picture:
https://www.philamercury.com/viewimg.php?id=29712
So this thread was more about the history of the grilled Peruvian issues, not the research about the existing grills and stamps. But, Michael Dixon is mentioned as author about the grills of Peru, but I don't find a literature? It seems no new articles were written since then. Especially, is there no research done in Peru by the Peruvian philatelic community, no specialised catalogue about the grills?

After all I did not find a book or article or website talking about grill types, while in the US stamps no collection could be imagined without knowing the types.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/21/2019   02:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Added: Yes, it seems that there are 3 types of grills which can be distinguished easily, and it seems that it's depending on the stamp size. But if all this seems so easy I only wonder why the grill types are not mentioned anywhere in the literature and especially in catalogues, it would be very easy for a catalogue to call them type 1, 2 and 3 and add it to the issues. So it's not that easy probably (like in the US grills, the mm size is not relevant, more the points as there are different point sizes for the same grills).
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1738 Posts
Posted 10/21/2019   11:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
stamperix, two points:

1. something we all need to keep in mind about measuring the grills produced by National, and Continental is that American companies in the late 19th century did not use metric system measurements. Grills were designed based on even fractions of an inch down to 1/32 inch (or 1/64 if you have an instrument to do that). For this reason, precise measurement of a grill area usually will not give even numbers in metric. On the other hand, by counting points you can rather quickly determine the linear dimensions of a grill in its English linear units once you know the dimensions of a point and its separation from an adjacent point. So for grills the shorthand for discussion purposes makes more sense if it is based on point count.

2. in his patent description, Steel referred to his process for what we call "grilling" as "embossing." He did in fact explore a number of methods for embossing prior to deciding upon the configuration we have come to know well. Since the concept of embossing covers a lot of ground, including what we otherwise call "grills" it is necessary to determine what the writers had in mind by their use of the word "embossing."

I too have a fair number of the grilled stamps of Peru, but I cannot get to that project right now, being occupied with two others that have deadlines.

(Aside to Clark: if you are coming to Chicagopex this year let me know so I can arrange to see you with an item I'd like us to discuss.)
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by essayk - 10/21/2019 11:12 am
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/21/2019   11:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, essayk. Yes, this was also my point about the points. I also would like to see the types being measured in points, not mm, and as such, no source can be found about the Peruvian grills.

Of course it would be great if you and Clark who have (I don't) many grilled Peru stamps, would look at them to give an opinion about the types (point size and distribution over time and stamps). But this would be the second step, I only wanted to start the discussion about the Peruvian grills here as I did not find much information about them and to ask whether there is literature, catalogue, internet source. I thought it would be likely that there has been some research published about them (in the matter described above), in Peru or in the USA, but as I begin to learn this is not the case.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/30/2019   11:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I found out that on the PPSC website you can indeed read documents from the virtual library, I thought you would need a login.

So I read a lot more about this topic and I give some interesting literature links here:

Nicoletti Gonzales: stamps issue of 1874
http://www.peru-philatelic-study-ci...874-1879.pdf

Bustamante: catalogue of the issues 1870-90s
http://www.peru-philatelic-study-ci...874-1899.PDF

Dixon: article about the grills (rejillas) of Peru:
https://p10.secure.hostingprod.com/...114_1977.pdf
https://p10.secure.hostingprod.com/...115_1977.pdf
https://p10.secure.hostingprod.com/..._1977-79.pdf

the article is split into three parts in those links, always quite at the beginning of the journal.

(Don: As this is an important topic also for US classic collectors, I guess this article would be a nice addition to your Stampsmarter library, in a combined way as an own PDF - maybe the PPSC would give permission)

After all the summary could be that there are indeed different grills (as we knew already) and also for different stamp sizes, but many questions remain open.

I try to give my understanding here:
large definitives: 11x15.5mm
small definitives (and small postage due): 10x10mm and 10x11mm
large postage due: 9.5x14mm

No size definition in points is given anywhere, only a correlation of 1cm=12 points, some postage due 13 points.
I also did not find any information in the links above about horizontal vs. vertical ridges.

The grills of Peru are not rare, and are less complicated than the US grills. Even less I understand why no catalogue has ever given the grill types for the issues. It would be easy to add the type to the definitives and postage dues. Also, it should be possible (with a large reference collection) to count the grill points and compare, rather than measuring the mm sizes.

No Peru grill is exactly the same as the US grill types, although National made the grills. So the equipment seems to be made new for the Peru grills.

Another open issue could be paper. National used hard paper, so all Peruvian stamps with grills should be on that paper - again a reference collection could help finding paper differences.

All this topic is interesting and worth being studied more as I am sure that there is much to discover.






Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 10/31/2019   5:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
One more small addition about the printing company or papers. As written above the National BNC printed the grilled 1874-79 issue and the grilled 1874 postage dues (deficit). But as the bank note companies were consolidated in 1879, the official printer of the 1c 1879 postage due stamp was the American BNC, as well as for the black/grey 10c definitive stamp 1884.

This is interesting, as then the American would have produced grills, or the National would have made them still, but just were called part of American. Next point then would be which papers we can find for those 2 mentioned stamps especially, but of course as well as for all other grilled stamps. Also, the patent question would be interesting, as Steel was first working for National, then for Continental, but during the time of the Peruvian grills, where did he work, and which company had exactly when the permission to use the grilling patent.

All those questions can't be answered in one answer, I only added the above here as I learned it in the meantime, to give a more complete picture of all this. I did never collect Peru and have nearly no stamps of Peru. But the grill topic is interesting enough to begin a larger reference collection.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1287 Posts
Posted 11/01/2019   01:08 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The later printings without grills appear to be on softer paper. The real fun begins with grilled stamps that were overprinted officially or unofficially.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1347 Posts
Posted 11/01/2019   03:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamps without grills appear to be easy, as they were later and are American. More complicated are those 2 stamps with grill I mentioned above, but made by American, too. The overprinted stamps have to be checked for paper and grill as well, of course, but until now I thought they should not be too complicated as they are either in the National era anyway or were existing already and overprinted later. So I would only bother about them in a special way if they were on soft paper.

Do we have any source telling us something about how and when it was possible for a company to use the grilling patent? National seems to have had the permission also after Steel left the company? And how did American get the permission and when?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2020 Stamp Community Forums
It took 0.3 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05