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Bayern Letter With Bisected Stamp, Help Need

 
 
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Valued Member

Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
126 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   05:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Rafa to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Bayern letter with bisected stamp and mark "396" Pilsting/Niederbayern - signed. Is any know about bisected bayern stamp?



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Valued Member
Austria
132 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   09:22 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add tommtomm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The post office simply ran out of 6 Kr. So they made themselves two parts worth 3 Kr. It was a common way these days. There are known even smaller parts (eights in Mexico e.g.).

I can't tell anything about a possible value, but there are some really special "halves" around. One letter with the famous "Syke-Halbierung" was sold for unbelievable 261.000,- Euros in a German auction.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syke-Halbierung
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Edited by tommtomm - 11/12/2019 09:23 am
Pillar Of The Community
France
754 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   09:56 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add vayolene to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp on the cover is Michel # 10
According to the catalogue obliquely bisected ("schräg halbiert") copies exist,with a very high value,but only on covers with genuine postal use.
Items like that need an expertization,not only an old signature.
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Edited by vayolene - 11/12/2019 10:12 am
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2281 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   10:33 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Asking prices can be very high for these bisects.(lack of 3 Kreuzer stamps during the Austro-Prussian war)
Auction link:lot 102101330000


https://www.deider.de/

_______________________________________________________________________________
That being said ,there is no reason why a bisect mailed from a smaller post office would not be genuine.Large Post offices Like Munich had a large stock of different values.They could of used 3 1 Kreuzer stamps also.In local situations halving a stamp was inadmissable but recognized to a certain limit.
The main thing to know is if the stamp & cancel belong together.
The 6 Kreuzer is a common stamp. So if a forger was to create something like this that would be a logical choice.Rarer types like Mi.Nr's: 1II,4I,5aa,5a,13a would arouse suspicion.
I noticed that the cover is somewhat lighter in tone in the corner where the stamp is.
Also the ink in the upper part of the "L" has been in contact with water or something.
Could the stamp (un-halved ) been removed from the cover,halved, and a forged addition of the cancel added ?


Notice the lighter tone in the upper left corner:


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Edited by perf12 - 11/12/2019 2:07 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
3280 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   2:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Vayolene's last sentence says it all.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2281 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   3:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Expertizing does not say it all ,in all cases with bisects.Many times it is just impossible
to find a difference between a forged and genuine cover.Postal workers aslo made their contribution by making "favour" bisected covers for collectors.
In fact the BPP experts are often reluctant in making final assesments in these types of covers,simply because it is impossible to be 100% sure.Unless there are apparent flaws in the over all aspect.Taking in consideration the stamp & cancel,paper,dates ,and known genuine types.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1923 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   3:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This has pluses and minuses. It's good that there is a gap between stamp and cancel impression; most forgers would have filled in the space to try to tie the stamp absolutely. It is also good that the stamp took the brunt of the cancel strike so it is heaviest on the stamp, like on the auction bisect cover shown. Yet, it is rather bothersome that the full "3" was struck where the strike is very light around it. So, an expert would need to know the exact form of the 396 cancel.

The expert mark is the TT on the back, related to the note on the front Gep(ruft) Th(ier). Max Their was and remains a reliable expert. This would have to have been expertized in 1920 or earlier.

Now, the question is, is that a genuine expert mark? Could you please show us the TT on back, magnified as best you can?
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Edited by hy-brasil - 11/12/2019 6:24 pm
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2281 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   5:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

_______________________________________________________________________
The Philatelic Experts site indicates:
Max Their His rather common expertising mark is still highly respected. The hand stamp was forged by Rudolf Siegel for use on forged German States stamps. [Brühl p. 485, Tyler p. 116]


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Edited by perf12 - 11/12/2019 6:06 pm
Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2281 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   6:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Genuine marking on a Hannover stamp:







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Edited by perf12 - 11/12/2019 6:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1923 Posts
Posted 11/12/2019   7:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add hy-brasil to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The cancel numbers were redistributed in 1856 so only the comparison with the 9kr works for those shown. That said, the 3kr blue cancel matches the the 9kr but neither seems to match the bisect cancel. The loop on the "6" looks different to me. More "spokes" need to be seen. The others might probably be Würzburg cancels (and are all different from one another).
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Valued Member
Croatia (Local Name: Hrvatska)
126 Posts
Posted 11/13/2019   12:06 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rafa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
here is
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
2281 Posts
Posted 11/13/2019   07:18 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply


For me the hand stamp looks bogus in comparison with the genuine type.
IMO I do not think this cover passes all the tests for a genuine cover.I would not buy it.
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