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Austrian Offices In Ottoman Empire, 1908, Postmark

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Valued Member
United States
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Posted 11/25/2019   8:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add EMaxim to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This is Scott #48 issued 1908 and seems to be postmarked Durazzo (Albania). Scott indicates that the Austrian post office in Durazzo remained open until 1915 using stamps of the Austrian Ottoman offices. But Scott doesn't list any such stamps issued after 1883. Is there something I don't understand?
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Posted 11/25/2019   8:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMaxim,

Maybe you're getting confused by the change in currency after 1883?

As you say, this is Scott Austrian Offices in the Turkish Empire #48 issued in Turkish currency.

Up to 1883 the offices had stamps in the currency of the Austrian Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia with face values in soldi.

Later they also issued stamps in French currency for use in many of their post offices in the Turkish Empire.

Scott still identifies these French currency stamps as being issued for the offices in Crete although that was not actually the case.


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Nigel
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Posted 11/26/2019   10:39 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Nigel, and thanks for responding.

First, let me admit that for now my only source for Austrian stamps is Scott. I haven't yet acquired the appropriate Michel volume.

From Scott, then, it seems that Austrian offices in the Ottoman Empire used stamps of Lombardy-Venetia until 1867. Thereafter they used Austrian stamps with currency still in soldi/florin until 1886, when para/piaster were employed instead.

Austria maintained an office in Durazzo until 1915, so I'm assuming that stamps posted there between 1886 and 1915 would be Austrian in para/piaster. Mine above is from 1908 and therefore in para. So far, so good.

For Albania, Scott lists stamps of Austrian offices in several locations, including Durazzo. Whether these are stamps of Lombardy-Venetia or Austria itself, Scott lists none issued after 1883, and all those listed are in soldi, none in para.

My question, then, is why for Albania doesn't Scott list any Austrian office stamps issued after that date? Why none in para/piaster, since apparently there are such stamps, at least until 1915? Is this a problem with Scott? And is Michel better here?

Eric
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Posted 11/26/2019   2:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
My Scott catalogue is the 2009 edition so is now well out of date.

My Michel catalogues are even older, from 1998-99.

I haven't seen any Scott or Michel listings for stamps used in individual offices in the Turkish Empire.

Is this in the Scott Classic?

Sorry I can't help on this point.

SG simply lists the currencies of stamps (L-V, Turkish or French) used in each post office along with the office's opening and closing dates.

SG does not list the individual stamps known used from each office.

I only have a small number of Albanian postmarks on these stamps: most are from Scutari, with a few from Durazzo, Santi Quaranta and Valona.

All but one of these are in Turkish currency.

The exception is a Santa Quaranta stamp in French currency.

I showed the ones I had at the time in this old thread:

http://goscf.com/t/57575
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Nigel
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Posted 11/26/2019   6:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Scott Classics has recently (don't know when) begun providing separate listings for stamps of one country that were used in another, e.g., German stamps used in Austria after the Anschluss, and those of Lombardy-Venetia or Austria postmarked in Albania. These listings have each its own number, beginning generally with capital A.

For Austrian post offices in Albanian cities, Scott Classics lists stamps of both Lombardy-Venetia and Austria, but only those with face value in soldi and only up to 1883. Since Austria maintained its Albanian post offices till 1915, why didn't Scott include also the stamps that were posted there after 1883?
Eric




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221 Posts
Posted 11/26/2019   6:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for the unreadable scan. Thought I'd deleted it. Will try again to show you the relevant Albanian page after I figure out how to make it clear.
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Bedrock Of The Community
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Posted 11/26/2019   8:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1907 Steiner Page 13.

1867 Steiner Page 11.
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Edited by rod222 - 11/26/2019 9:05 pm
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Posted 11/26/2019   10:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Eric,

For many years the SG Commonwealth and British Empire catalogue has listed each British stamp used in the many nineteenth century "British Post Offices Abroad".

Other SG catalogues provide sometimes more limited lists of similar "used abroad" stamps.

SG typically uses a prefix "Z" for its catalogue numbers for these stamps.

For example, for GB stamps used in the British post offices in Peru, stamps Z1 to Z27 are British stamps used in Arica, Z28 to Z56 for British stamps used in Callao etc.

These are not special stamps issued for these post offices but simply regular British stamps that are identifiable by the postmarks used in the particular post offices.

Similarly, SG lists 10 Lombardy-Venetia stamps (as Z1 to Z10) from the 1863 and 1864 issues which were used in Austrian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire but SG doesn't list them separately for the individual offices.

I guess Scott has done something similar here with a listing of Lombardy-Venetia stamps (as opposed to stamps of the Austrian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire in Lombardy-Venetian currency) used broken down by post office.

(By the way, in my earlier post, I had misunderstood the "V" column in SG's post office listing to refer to the use of Lombardy-Venetia currency Austrian Post Office stamps when it actually refers to the use of regular Lombardy-Venetia stamps in specific offices.)
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Nigel
Edited by nigelc - 11/26/2019 10:40 pm
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Posted 11/26/2019   10:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Eric,


Quote:
For Austrian post offices in Albanian cities, Scott Classics lists stamps of both Lombardy-Venetia and Austria, but only those with face value in soldi and only up to 1883.


I had guessed that the Scott listing of Austrian stamps used in Albania would be for regular stamps with kreuzer face values.

However, I see from your reference to stamps of Austria with face values in soldi that this isn't the case.

I would guess that this would have to refer to Austrian Post Office in the Turkish Empire stamps with Lombardy-Venetia currency which really wouldn't be "used abroad" in the usual sense.

I really look forward to seeing a clear scan of part of the Scott listing.
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Nigel
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Posted 11/27/2019   10:15 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hello again, Nigel
I think you're right; Scott seems to have followed SG's lead in providing separate listings for stamps of one nation posted from offices in another. For Austrian post in Albania, Scott uses the prefix 2A. Scott then groups stamps of each of these Austrian offices separately, though the numbering is consecutive. Thus for the office in Antivari the numbers are 2A1-2A51, those for Durazzo are 2A52-2A124, etc. (Can't see why Scott stops listing with stamps of 1883, but they do.)

I'm still struggling with the scan of the relevant pages of Scott. It looks great until I upload to the forum. There it's hopelessly blurred. I see that Rod just posted beautiful scans of whole album pages. How is this done?

Eric
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Posted 11/27/2019   10:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a (somewhat) better image of a portion of an Albania page from Scott Classic 2013. I've used the forum's Image Optimizer, but it seems I ought to be able to do still better. Will keep trying.

Eric

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Posted 11/27/2019   10:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Getting better!
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2840 Posts
Posted 11/27/2019   11:27 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Eric,

That's fascinating!

Thanks for taking the trouble to post these scans and for raising the subject in the first place.


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Nigel
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Posted 11/27/2019   11:31 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Here's what I now believe. Through at least 1883 Austria used stamps of Lombardy-Venetia (in soldi) for its offices in the Ottoman Empire. Starting in 1886 for these same offices Austria used Austrian stamps in para/piaster. For Albania (part of the Ottoman Empire till WWI), Austria first used stamps of Lombardy-Venetia 1863-83, then stamps of Austria in para/piaster, i.e., those designed for use of all its offices in Ottoman lands. The stamp that I posted is one of these latter, issued 1908, postmarked Durazzo, one of Austria's offices in Albania. Austria closed all its offices there in 1915. Please correct me if any of this is wrong.

As for the stamp that I posted: Since Scott provides no special listings for Austrian offices in Albania after 1883 (and why not?), it's only from the postmark that I can determine that this stamp was posted in Albania and therefore ought to belong with the others to which Scott has given its special 2A listings.

Eric
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France, Metropolitan
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Posted 11/27/2019   12:16 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think the catolog had to draw the line somewhere.Listing the 1883 shield and later types
why not ? That would mean compiling lists for more common later stamps.The early issues are the scarcest (lombardo venetia) with albanian cancels.The later types seem quiet a bit over cataloged in my view.

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Posted 11/27/2019   12:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nigelc to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Eric,

Yes, I agree, although I would distinguish the stamps of Lombardy-Venetia from those of the later Austrian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire stamps with face values in soldi.

The Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia came to an end in 1866 after the Austro-Prussian war when Venetia (including Venice) became part of Italy.

Austria had already lost most of Lombardy (including Milan) in 1859 to Sardinia.

I wonder if the Austrian Post Offices in the Turkish Empire were administered from Venice until 1866?

The Austrian gulden (=100 kreuzer) was worth the same as the Lombardy-Venetian florin (=100 soldi) so I guess the continued use of the name "soldi" wouldn't have been a problem.

The Austrian post office in Sarandė (Santi Quaranta) used both Turkish and French currency stamps.
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Nigel
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