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Question About The Consolidation Of The Bank Note Companies (Abn, Cbn, Nbn) In 1879

 
 
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Posted 12/01/2019   02:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add stamperix to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

in 1879 the American Bank Note Company absorbed the National Bank Note and Continental Bank Note companies. As I mentioned in another thread I am interested in Peruvian stamps from that time and its grills. This topic here is not about the grills, but more about the background of the printing companies.

Is there an article about this time and the consolidation of the companies?

The following questions come into mind when I think about it:
- when exactly was the consolidation, or did it take some time (months, years?)
- was the result that in 1879 there was "suddenly" only one printing building left, and all people of NBN and CBN were fired?
- or did the NBN and CBN just continue their work in their buildings and with their tools (paper, griller)? If yes until when?
- does it mean anything if the imprint of ABN or NBN would be at the edge of a sheet? Or is it like with the change from CBN to ABN that the ABN used CBN plates, so they also used to any time NBN plates?

It's very interesting to see that there are two stamps of Peru which were issued and printed quite late:
1879: 1c postage due
1884: 10c postage stamp (black)

Both have a grill and appear sometimes as their own "issue", sometimes as part of the regular issue (1874), I read they are printed by National, but read also printed by American. From what I saw they are at least not on the very soft paper. The question is just if they are perhaps printed by NBN, in their own building with own people and the griller equipment, but just under the name of ABN. Of course it would also be interesting what was needed to produce grills, so if Steel had to be there or the patent to be bought (which I am not sure whether ABN ever did).
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Edited by stamperix - 12/01/2019 03:02 am

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Posted 12/01/2019   06:20 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
stamperix
i cannot get to my references at this moment, but have a book that traces the company history. I will post the title and info later today.
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Posted 12/01/2019   09:53 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
the book is "The story of the American Bank Note Company", by William H. Griffiths. Copyrighted in 1959.
It was privately printed by ABN Co. and was apparently a limited edition.
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Posted 12/01/2019   10:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Amazon has the book in paperback.
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Posted 12/01/2019   3:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you - that seems a good source and maybe the only. On the other hand it's written in 1959 and many things about the Bank Note companies (like paper types) have been discovered since then. Also, it is probably a book (rather small) about the complete history of the company and my guess is that the time of the consolidation will not be described on many pages and in detail (see my questions). But if anybody has or knows this book, I would be glad, of course, to know if the 1879 consolidation time is explained or not so much.

I searched a bit longer in the internet and also in the Chronicle archive. I only found articles about the change from CBN to ABN and the difficulty of the papers to that time (Landau, Barwis). This is also an interesting topic and also touches the questions I asked (in this case: what happened to the people, equipment, paper and building of the CBN in 1879), but even more interesting - and possibly easier - is the case for the NBN > ABN switch. If we look at the Peru stamps and Barwis' research, it should be clear to distinguish the printings of the NBN and the ABN. On the other hand we have the mentioned 1879 and 1884 grilled stamps which are not on a very soft paper. Was this done "as usual" by the NBN, only under the name of ABN, or did ABN produce all those stamps in their own company but with different paper and with the griller (with patent usage?).

In addition to the book of Griffiths there is only one article I found which could be interesting, but it's not yet available without membership, it the "Hard-Paper Printings of the 1879 American Bank Note Company Stamp" of Burns.
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Posted 12/01/2019   4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add m and m to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
the book, as I recall covers the people and consolidations that led up to the entity known as the ABN. it does not cover the contracts with the various entities that they printed various documents stamps and currency for. the foreword says that information is still considered proprietary.
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Posted 12/02/2019   04:52 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I guess the book is interesting but probably not going into detail about my questions. The mentioned article of Burns would be very interesting perhaps. But the American hard paper is something to be studied more for sure. As I can't read Burns' article I
looked here at SCF and found a discussion about American hard paper here:

http://goscf.com/t/44915

Members wrote there that the transition from American "hard" to soft paper was done in 1881/1883, or in another opinion that this was done in 1879 already, and only a handful of American hard paper stamps were made until 1881. Also, it remained not clear whether the American hard paper was due to old paper supply/stock or not. But Burns' article is mentioned there as well, and also one of Wiley which I am not aware of yet?

---
But after all, with the Peru stamps we don't talk about a handfulf of stamps only, and beside the 1c Postage due from 1879, we have a 10c stamp from 1884 which is grilled and not on really soft paper. I suppose the Peru stamps can change a lot in understanding the US stamps and its printing companies in the future. Only: From what I found on the Philamercury board it is perhaps not possible to ever know which paper was used from which supply after 1879 by ABN. So for the time being we perhaps have to follow the company-based catalogue system of Scott also for Peru stamps rather than using paper differences.
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Edited by stamperix - 12/02/2019 05:16 am
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Posted 12/02/2019   09:01 am  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Rather than speculate, why not join the United States Classics Society?

https://www.uspcs.org/
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Edited by cfrphoto - 12/02/2019 09:03 am
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Posted 12/02/2019   09:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your answer and the good idea. But at the end I suppose that my questions above are not answered in this article, too, that's why I asked some questions here.
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Posted 12/02/2019   10:36 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Another good idea, make a small donation to this community.
Don
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Posted 12/02/2019   1:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your answer. I only wanted to open a topic which has not really been discussed much as I thought and I hoped that it could be a good contribution to this forum beside all those "is this a 596" or similar threads. The same with the Peru grill topic where I shared all information I had and found after searching a while, which I also thought that it could be a good contribution to this community. Sometimes it seems there are topics that are not really studied too much and I don't see any other public forum (neither the other more known stamp forums) where one could try :).
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Posted 12/02/2019   7:15 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a good question. I agree that this is the wrong forum for identifying rare 20th Century stamps or 19th Century special printings and reissues. This is the right forum for confirming difficult plate varieties or plating. I wish that the "What is the stamp I found in the attic" type questions could be moved to a new forum instead of making this forum a dumping ground.

Back to the original question. According to Brookman, a useful reference now on-line, the transition from National Bank Note Company to Continental Bank Note company required relocating dies, plates and other items. The transition from Continental Bank Note Company to American Bank Note Company was part of the consolidation and did not require any interruption of work for relocation. A new name plate on the door was required. Unfortunately, the Scott Catalog attempts to classify stamps by printer. In the case of Continental and American Bank Note, consolidation occurred after Continental Banknote had already switched to softer paper. Ron Burn's article on the American Bank Note hard paper printings is based on documentation suggesting that ABN purchased a hundred or more sheets of hard paper for a special or experimental printing consuming 25 sheets or paper. After the 25 sheets were destroyed, ABN was given permission at some point to use remaining sheets in regular stamp production. A 1 cent example exists on cover, but it is undated. Four other 1 cent examples have been identified. Ron has some 3 cent examples. Other denominations are believed to exist. Because the paper is not easy to distinguish from Continental hard paper, the American Bank Note logo must be visible on the stamp or in the selvage.

This is the cover:


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Posted 12/03/2019   03:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stamperix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much for sharing this very interesting cover. I don't have anything similar to share, but I can look into my bank note stamps concerning the imprints. Is the list of imprints given in introduction of the Durland catalogue (I have 2016 ed.) complete? Unfortunately the images there are low resolution but they help anyway.

(We have to know that for Peru stamps there is additional text in the selvage in Spanish and for the Hawaii stamps in their language and sometimes with a monogram, and all differences are nicely explained on the Post Office in Paradise website)

The cover above is not dated but it has the logo of an agricultural newspaper on it. Perhaps the logo can (or can't) help in making the time slot smaller for the cover. The Husbandman was founded in 1874 as "The Elmira Husbandman, Elmira N.Y.", from 1876 as "The Husbandman. Elmira N.Y." and from 1892 "The Husbandman. Binghamton N.Y.". So it's likely the cover was sent between 1876-92 which is a match to your ideas while not an exact date.

About the consolidation: Thank you for the information about the CBN > ABN switch. Yes, this is the reason why there are so many (but not enough) discussions about the paper of the 1879 time. But also in this case and especially in the case of the NBN > ABN switch I wonder what happened to the old CBN and NBN building, people and equipment. I ask this as - if we really follow the company-based listing - we can simply tell 1879 as the year when all stamps are "officially" ABN, even if they were printed (in the same configuration as before) by NBN, in their building with their tools and grillers. This is interesting for the late grilled stamps of Peru (1879, 1884). Then we don't have to search for a hard American paper in this case, but it is just National paper under the name of ABN. Or if we follow the paper-based catalogue idea we could search for different paper of the late grilled stamps, for example grills on (really) soft paper. But if we know that NBN just printed in their building the search for the typically American grilled stamps is not likely to get results. All this for Peru - but I think Peru and perhaps Hawaii can help in understanding the 1879 period in the USA as well.

Of course, in the special case of grills we also have to consider the rights of use of the patent or the question where Mr. Steel worked in 1879.

As I think that there is no detail about all this in the Griffiths book nor in the Burns article I hoped that there would be a philatelic text about the consolidation time or somebody here who can give more details. Sorry if I write and ask so much but this just comes so fast into mind always. I don't expect all questions to be answered, they should also be used by me or any reader as new ideas.
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Edited by stamperix - 12/03/2019 03:47 am
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