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Identify This Us Stamp 70d Or 78c With Thin Paper?

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
508 Posts
Posted 01/10/2020   11:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with rogdcam on this one. It would appear that there is no definitive opinion on this stamp at the present time raising several interesting questions including whether the "in house" format is truly superior to how the APS handles submissions, the true value of technology, and why it has taken 2 months to not reach a consensus when other decisions of everyday life that do not reach a consensus, show that lack of consensus within minutes.

If you receive an unambiguous opinion on the cert whenever it is issued, and it expertises this as one of the rarer shades, I would recommend never resubmitting.

Whereas all of the focus has been on the shade, have you actually received any indication as to whether, regardless of the shade, the stamp will be
Certified as sound?
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Edited by funcitypapa - 01/10/2020 11:28 am
Valued Member
United States
83 Posts
Posted 01/10/2020   1:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I believe the PF experts are conflicted between 70b steel blue and 70d pale gray violet shades.
They said so when I last spoke to one member last month. I submitted it as. 70d. I agree with
Rogdam and funcitypapa that with all the hi tech IR and mass spect equipment at their disposal
It is coming down to expert's individual opinions about color. They have mater collections to compare
My stamp to, don't they? They did this to me before when another 70 stamp I submitted to them
took 8 months to come back to me.

Funcitypapa not faults on this stamp. It is pristine with strong color, exceptional centering and thin white paper
The stamp is previously hinged and has slightly disturbed gum but that is it fo stamp 158 years old. It should grade 90 for this issue.


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Posted 01/10/2020   2:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What was the story with the other 70 you submitted, but took 8 months to return? You submitted as what and it returned as what? Was this stamp under current discussion submitted for grade? Certainly, any stamp of that series with OG returning with a clean cert and grading 90 would be well worth the expense.
I must have been asleep when you originally posted but can you explain where and how you found the current stamp?
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United States
83 Posts
Posted 01/10/2020   3:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp was discovered in Switzerland apparently in old timers Collection.
It had never been evaluated by US experts. I acquired it in an auction.

I submitted to the PF a used Scott 60 (or 70TC6) with clean 1961 PF cert saying it was genuine in all respects
They overturned the original PF opinion after sending it out to numerous experts and issued me 2018 cert saying it was used 70c "reddish violet" shade. It has a lovely target cancel and I will be showing it in future post. The deep violet color and detailed impression on this stamp is magnificent and I considered sending it
To the PSE or APS. What do you think I should do?
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
508 Posts
Posted 01/10/2020   4:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add funcitypapa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Blackjack: thank you for your information. So I guess you would be considered an expert on the 1861 24 centers (at least I would consider you as such) and based on what I have previously said you can probably guess what I am going to say. If you are satisfied with the stamp and the opinion, I would leave things alone and not go shopping for additional opinions; frankly I think much of this when it comes to shades is a guessing game. My initial response to you sending in the #60 for an updated cert was, "why would you do that?" But then when you said that the stamp came back as a USED 70c, I changed my mind. Frankly, I have never heard of a used #60, so that would have made me a little suspicious.

I too have collected the 24c 1861 in all of its shades. I think the engraving on this stamp is the finest of all US issues. Some of mine have been posted on this forum but not all. I'll tell you about 2 others that leads me to be skeptical about firm opinions on some examples of these issues.

The first is a used 70c Violet with a 1979 PFC. the central portion of the stamp is deep violet as far as the frame around GW. But the periphery is lighter more reminiscent of either steel blue or even the 70d. I do not take issue with the opinion; I am speaking about what to me color wise is almost a blended stamp or effect of changeling of the ink over time.

The other is an unused Scott 60 with a 1951 PFC signed by Theodore Steinway genuine but regummed. To me the shade is 70c, Violet, not dark violet. It occurred to me, in a fantasy only, to wash the gum off and submit as a 70c unused and see what happensóbut fantasies are not reality and I will leave it alone.

I also have 3 78c's, used, two with PSE certs and one with both PSE and PF certs. There is no equivocation in the opinion of any of them. The PSE certs were expertized by Shoemaker and Drew's and according to Frajola, they have the reference copy for that shade. Again, I am not disputing the opinion. They, and not I are the experts. But would I have called any of these blackish violetónope. To me a true blackish violet is Scott 45 where you can clearly see both the black and the violet at the same time.

The same goes for certain examples of Scott 67b, expertized
as such, but without the slightest hint of olive. To me, these shades and the opinions surrounding them are reminiscent of the Supreme Court justice or federal judge that replied to someone asking him to define pornography : "I may not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it." Don't get me wrong: I think collecting shades are fun, but in my opinion they are a certification minefield.

I would like to see the 70c to which you refer


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Edited by funcitypapa - 01/10/2020 4:33 pm
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83 Posts
Posted 01/10/2020   7:33 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Quote "Frankly, I have never heard of a used #60, so that would have made me a little suspicious."
There has only been one sold at Siegel rarities auction if I remember right in 2017 for $35,000.
I decide I would sell it at auction and got up-to -date PF cert as prerequisite for auction listing.
After it was described as 70c variant I decided it since it has one of a (color) kind so I decided to keep it.

I am away from the location where I have it at present. I will start another post about it soon.

I am impressed with the 24c 1861 series stamps you have listed and value your opinion.
I share your opinion that this design engraving is the finest of all US stamps and you seem
to be as passionate as I am about this 1861 issue as I am.
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United States
83 Posts
Posted 01/21/2020   1:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have spoken with an individual at the PF today.
My 24c Is still being evaluated by outside expert.
He indicated their opinion will take several more
weeks. It is a committee that finally decides which
Color variant it is. I asked if it is 70d as submitted
and that is what is holding it up. He says when a
stamp is this high value they want to get it right.
The suspense is getting to me.
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Posted 01/21/2020   2:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This much examination and handwringing over the course of months points out how ridiculous it is that these colors are assigned a premium and listed with a distinct catalog number. If the difference is that nuanced than what is the point? I truly do not understand it.
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Posted 01/21/2020   6:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Agree 100 percent with Rodgcam. Killing the hobby and high value subjective stamps always subject to the immoral practices of giving just an "opinion". If I want an opinion I could ask my kid in elementary school. She would give me her opinion. Unfortunately I would make argument that the back room antics to get a certificate (opinion) for this stamp will has negative repercussions here for hobby.
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Posted 01/21/2020   6:24 pm  Show Profile Check TangStamps's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TangStamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with @rogdcam totally. Assigning huge premium to subtle color varieties is absurd.
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Posted 01/21/2020   7:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Chipshot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to disagree, are you a buyer or a seller? If the market gets a premium you might realize a huge profit for finding one that qualifies as a rarity. I guess it comes down to what you value.
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Posted 01/21/2020   8:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
These shade/color issues are the embodiment of ambiguity in a hobby that abhors ambiguity.
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Posted 01/21/2020   8:42 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I support folks collecting whatever and however they want but for less experienced hobbyists I think that caution is clearly warranted before wandering into US classic stamps colors. Be aware that inks and the related stamp colors are ephemeral, require significant amount of study and a large reference collection, development of a good color eye, and a tolerance for risk.
Don
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Posted 01/22/2020   08:34 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BlackJack2271 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don. I agree with Chipshot that finding a classic US Original Gum stamp that had not been
expertized by an accredited US body is an opportunity to achieve a premium and profit.
Who would not take that opportunity.

Rogdam in collecting classic US stamps, there are many catalog #s assigned to subtle color shades
and other subtle permutations that sometimes only an expert opinion can identify as genuine.
Does'nt this make our hobby more interesting to collectors. Disagreement between collectors is
natural and not a bad thing.
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Posted 01/22/2020   09:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The catalog publishers, no doubt driven by dealers, gave these subtle differences gravitas. There are a great many obvious color/shade differences amongst these issues that are not listed and thus assigned no catalog premium. I have asked people with expertise in these stamps why a few particular colors/shades were singled out for special treatment and have never received a real answer. My main question has been were the catalog listed sub-shades determined to be distinct by virtue of historic records that indicate that the printing firm or government intentionally ordered the shade or was it a documented production error or is it just normal variation given the methods employed at the time.

It is not a bad thing to collect these and it is certainly a collectors prerogative to spend what they wish on whatever they wish.

For myself it is still puzzling why one color variation is the holy grail and another is not. Perhaps Scott Publishing archival records, assuming they exist, hold the real answer.
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