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The Cancer Is Spreading...

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Posted 12/23/2019   05:36 am  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Drew,
Your reductio ad absurdum post concludes with no feasible solution. You wrap up with 'I blame whoever makes and sells these mutilated items more than the people who buy them'. Ok, now what? Make laws against cutting up material by sellers? I agree that the government already has a large number of laws designed to 'protect ourselves from ourselves' and there are indeed laws adding oversight to things like food handling or child labor. The question is at what point does the government over-step? Once you go down this path you end up with things like it being illegal for the convenience store to sell an extra-large soft drinks but next door is a store which is selling alcohol. Even if the philatelic community is in agreement that a behavior is bad is it feasible to burden non-collectors and the rest of society for the cost of oversight? Does society end up with laws concerning other hobbies?

All,
There have been many other threads which we have outlined this issue, keeping the issue 'in front of us' has value but the root cause is not being addressed. Boycotts rarely have significant impact and often hurt folks related to the issue but are not responsible for the issue. But more importantly, many hobbyists might take an ethical 'stand' by not buying this chopped up material but are not willing to boycott the entire auction house, SANS, or the certification organizations (all of whom are making money on this behavior). A boycott works when a hobbyist sees an item they can live without and they justify passing it up with their ethical position. But same ethical position melts quickly away when as they pull out their wallet when material is offered that they have been seeking for years.

These threads seem to constantly circle back to the same single feasible solution, education. While this community has reach, it does not represent all of philately. So where is the philatelic press on this issue? See many articles or editorials in Linn's on this topic? See any of the philatelic organizations publishing educational information on this practice? Attended any break out seminars on this topic last year at shows? Are seller organizations like the ASDA having these kinds of discussions with their members? Are auction houses or SANS at least making some educational efforts or practices towards discouraging this behavior? I sometimes wonder if the reason that SCF does not get support from some of these entities is due to the fact that we have these kinds of threads and are willing to have public discussions on the 'hard topics'.

In my opinion philately needs educational efforts on this issue to be far more than a few online forums and discussions among small groups at a stamp club or show. Occasionally not buying this material is not nearly as effective as demanding further educational support from the companies and organizations which previously have remained silent. This is the missing oversight. Discussions and educational efforts regarding the 'greater good' of the hobby should not be avoided by the philatelic press or organizations just because they do not want to upset the apple cart or lose some advertising income. To be honest, I think that the primary purpose of our philatelic organizations is to represent the 'greater good' of the hobby. If there ever was a 'greater good' topic this one (preserving large, rare multiples) seems like a no brainer.
Don
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Posted 12/23/2019   06:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add angore to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This is an interesting discussion on morals (something some try to impose on themselves and reluctant others). I do not think any stamp group has tried to expand the traditional ethics code to include what is being discussed here. These beliefs often change depending on situation (sometimes the guardian of some aspect and other times resisting such activities to constrain behavior).

I may join the People's Hinge Free Front (credit to Monty Python's Life of Brian).
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Al
Edited by angore - 12/23/2019 06:48 am
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Posted 12/23/2019   07:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The sad fact is a small group of "collectors" with serious discretionary income drive this market, and they will continue to do so. They do not care about the ethics involved, or lack thereof. They do not care if others hate what they are doing. They only care about self gratification, and they have the means to do so. All the educational opportunities in the world will not change them, because they do not care about being educated; they do not think they need any.
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Posted 12/23/2019   09:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The linchpin for this behavior is the grading and by default the grading organizations. Without the alphanumerical designation assigned to such creations the entire thing falls apart. We can chicken or egg the thing to death but the grading validates and rewards the behavior.
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Posted 12/23/2019   10:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alub to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
grading validates and rewards the behavior.


The problem with these "jumbo" imperf's is that the grading agencies are inconsistent with their rules. Jumbo perforated stamps are the result in something the post office does. Jumbo imperf is something done to the stamp after it leaves the post office. Grading jumbo's should be based on factors from the post office, and not someone destroying 9 stamps to make a perfect one.

Further, why are people paying more for a single stamp with nine partials than for the whole block?

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Posted 12/23/2019   11:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add postagedueguy to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Clueless folks with exacto knifes.
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Edited by postagedueguy - 12/23/2019 5:09 pm
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Posted 12/23/2019   1:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Since I generally paid more attention to Commonwealth stamps than US stamps, I remember being surprised when this first came up here, almost ten years ago.

http://goscf.com/t/10138

The OP's picture is gone, but there are enough images in this string that you can imagine what that one looked like.

Lots of old, familiar faces in that thread...

As long as people keep paying PSE for grading, PSE will keep cashing the checks. Ridiculing these abominations from time to time serves a purpose, though, if even a few people might see this and think twice before going down this road.

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Posted 12/23/2019   1:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And then how far do you take the protection of multiples. US Scott 318, the one cent Franklin coil, is a case in point. Siegel recently sold a strip of four with the following in the description:

"There are probably fewer than six strips of four of Scott 318 in existence, which are the largest recorded multiples. Most have been broken to feed collector demand for pairs and singles."

Granted that the other stamps in the strips that were broken up were not mutilated in the process but a scarce to rare multiple was lost. Grading was not to blame in these instances but other multiples/blocks of perforated stamps have been broken up in great numbers sometimes to isolate a stamp for grading or to just feed demand.

I am for a free market and less regulation because the alternative never, ever ends well.

As has been said many times the best case would be for an entity to acquire these multiples for preservation. That would deprive collectors of some opportunities to have ownership (stewardship if you like) of these items. My observation though is that as far as philatelic objects go the deep pockets lie in the collector world, not the institutional world and so we end up back at the beginning.


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Posted 12/24/2019   2:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NY Steve to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately there will always be a demand for things that are perceived as status symbols or ego-boosters, and there will always be somebody eager to profit from that demand. Consider the appeal of shark-fin soup- People eat it to show off their financial success and status, despite knowing what becomes of the rest of the shark. It is unlikely that we would ever be able to convince those who would purchase these stamps to be concerned about the "collateral damage" caused by creating them.
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Posted 12/24/2019   2:29 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I do not think the task at hand is to educate or convince those who currently support this to change. I think the task at hand to prevent further growth of this behavior.

But if folks think there is no hope then we no longer need threads on this topic, I can move them all into the Deleted area and can just move on. Not much point in having threads that just complain about stuff if there is no hope in changing.
Don
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Posted 12/24/2019   4:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Louise411 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To Angore;
You are one of our most intelligent writer-posters. I very much enjoy your posts. I must admit that I struggled a bit with, "...These beliefs often change depending on situation (sometimes the guardian of some aspect and other times resisting such activities to constrain behavior)." Would you please elaborate?
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