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Special Paper Varieties (563, 564, 566, 567, 568, 569, And C11)

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Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
939 Posts
Posted 01/02/2020   4:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Forget Measuring!

The easiest way is to establish the direction of paper [grain] straight away.

It is bloody shame that philatelists haven't learned this in over a hundred years! And are still unwilling to learn so.....
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Valued Member
United States
6 Posts
Posted 01/03/2020   12:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Coilman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Re the last post about not having to measure - that would be fine, but requires a microscope or some means of determining fiber orientation (paper machine direction of web) - not something in my desk tools. If there's a method "straight away" - please tell! Templates are cheap and simple. Here's another: Two different Special Booklet Paper Plate Blocks of #17430 - one with star, one without - with #551 Hale on Regular Sheet stamp paper superimposed, showing SBP is wider and shorter than regular paper. These were scanned at the same time and resolution, then graphically cropped for comparison.

Also note when using template pairs, the gaps or margins between the stamps may vary in width, and must be accounted for.

Finally, a very simple basic precept - these are ALL perf 11 stamps - remove rotary printing counterparts from consideration!

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Canada
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Posted 01/11/2020   2:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DeEll to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, the ratio of the 15 cent 566a's to 566's is 1 to 8! Having said that, I have not found very many, whereas the 11 cents are rather abundant!
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Posted 01/14/2020   9:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think part of the problem with finding 566a is recognizing one once you've found it. The size difference for 566a vs. 566 seems considerably less than for the other special papers. Maybe half as large?
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Posted 01/15/2020   2:12 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This thread, along with the one posted by the German collector who was mistakenly using a 552 booklet stamp as a template for identification purposes, has brought a question to mind. I know that the special papers have been deemed collectable since their discovery around 80 years ago, but until 2020 Scott deemed them unworthy of recognition in their catalogue. Now that they have been officially recognized, can minor numbers be far behind for flat plate booklet stamps? If 563 & 563b are acknowledged via separate numbers, why not 552 & 552x, where 552x is a single from a booklet pane? After all, the design size differences will be much the same for both Franklin & Hayes.
Having asked the question, I'll toss out an answer. I would guess that Scott will likely find separate numbers for the booklet panes (e.g., 552a & 554c) as sufficient acknowledgment of the differences. But I'm not sure that I would agree.
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Posted 01/15/2020   5:21 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
<soapbox>
In my opinion flyspecs, colors, and details like paper varieties are wonderful things for the specialist who wants to write a specialized article or book but they should not get recognized with a major catalog number. I have respect for those whose desire to dig deeper into our hobby and even more respect for those who document their work. But the inconstancy in assigning major catalog numbers paired with the consistent desire to sell more books each year has resulted in an increasingly more complex catalogs.

Imagine you would like to buy a collector car and have seen my advertisement for a car where I make a number of claims regarding rarity and identification of the car I am selling. Before coming over to see the car you want to do your homework and be knowledgeable before cutting loose with a significant amount of money. But simply knowing the standard information like model name, number of doors, and trim options is no where close to what you need to know to make an informed buying decision on the actual identity of the car. Instead, you would have to invest months or even years accurately identify the car to be assured that what I was selling was what I purported it to be.

Further imagine that I was claiming the car was a very rare original paint color and this was why I was asking 50% more for it based upon the standard hobby price guide. The price guide offers no help in identifying that color but simply assigns a unique value for cars which are 'midnight blue'. The justification was that 'midnight blue' was only painted on a handful of cars 100 years ago. But today no one really knows what 'midnight blue' looked like back then. A few original 'midnight blue' cars exist but obviously original 100 year old paint jobs have changed color. But in the standard old car price guide they call it out as a real model and assign a higher value for it. (Then you find out that I was the one who got 'midnight blue' listed in the price guide after several years of pushing the publishers to do so. Not only did this give me bragging rights but I also benefit since I think that I own one of the 'midnight blue' cars.)

I think that adding new major catalog numbers is a game being played by several interested parties which have motivations beyond helping philately. Some catalog publishers primary motivation is to get hobbyists to buy a new set of catalogs each year. Since many collectors know that catalog values do not accurately reflect market values, adding new catalog numbers offers justification to drive annual sales. And on the other end of the scale we have hobbyists who are likely to promote new finds and encouraging interest by assigning catchy names like 'flaming pink flamingo' color or a 'bleeding neck Washington' variety. Achieving the addition of a new catalog number is more an ego boost than publishing a specialized reference article or book. Not all catalogs are issued annually, many serve the hobby just fine with a new version every 5 years but the annual catalog publishers are under pressure to drive sales every single year.

After numerous decades the result has been the inconstant assigning of catalog numbers and a overly complex hobby reference guide which serves to discourage new hobbyists. When a new hobbyist enters our hobby they are faced with months (or years) of learning before they can make a confident identification or buying decision on a major catalog number to fill a space in their album. This situation is made more challenging when a new hobbyist is chided for not owning a highly specialize catalog or has not spent a few years learning the hobby. This community illustrates this issue, for every person who is posting there are literally hundreds who only 'lurk' since they are fearful of looking uninformed.

As I mentioned, nothing wrong at all when folks drive forward an increase in the hobby knowledgebase. And certainly nothing wrong at all with documenting years of study in specialized refence works. I truly appreciate the time and effort that specialized folks have invested in the hobby. In many ways we stand upon the shoulders of those who have laid the foundational research in our hobby. But I think the issue here is using highly specialized information as justification for new major catalog numbers in the standard hobby reference guides. Where is the limit to this game? When hobbyists shelves buckle under the weight of the catalogs and albums? When the hobby is so complex that newcomers run away in frustration? When experienced hobbyists are required to use certification services to accurately fill many of the spaces in their albums? When our hobby population hits the diminishing return level of new hobbyist additions being less than the attrition rate?
</soapbox>

Don
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Posted 01/15/2020   8:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Chipshot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don, well said! The new technology is intimidating to say the least. I have enjoyed the "simple life" for years and think it might be just as well to leave it an that. There is a lot to learn in philately but to what end? Each person needs to decide how to approach the collecting. Do it for yourself not some one else. All that being said it does seem some people are misrepresenting items in hopes of financial gain. This seems to be especially true where condition is concerned in sales descriptions being exaggerated. It does make one wonder where it will all end up. I have seen situations where today's desirable cars are nothing like what was originally produced and they have been way over restored to please a very limited group of patrons and suppliers.
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6 Posts
Posted 01/15/2020   10:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Coilman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As the author of the Special Feature that accompanied the Special Booklet Paper (SBP) listings in the 2020 Scott Specialized, let me provide a little backstory and personal viewpoint on the current discussion.

The backstory part relates to REAL confusion by dealers and collectors for the three paper types of the Special Handling stamps, and that's where my "crusade" began - very few knew how uncommon the Special Handling dry printings were, and dealers were selling the 1928 yellow-green SBP stamps as wet prints, and the 1940 regular paper wet prints as dry printings, based on the lighter shade of color. The new discovery, now proven, but unknown to Hugh Southgate when he reported the SBP printings, was that ALL the 1928 Special Handling stamps were printed on the 1928 SBP!

Discussions with the publisher in 2015 and 2016, in concert with the expertizing groups, about having the Special Handling 1928 SBP variety listed, carried the proviso that the other (eight) stamps on SBP also be "justified." The effort was completed for the "Specialized" edition, not the standard edition, and follows the format fairly closely of the Durland and Hebert's specialty catalogs. Feedback to date indicates most collectors understand and appreciate lower case varieties (for which most albums do not print spaces to be filled); and furthermore, there's little if any monetary incentive for dealers or specialists at current pricing levels, for which there is very little premium for the variety.

As to listing single stamps in addition to full booklet panes for stamps such as 552a and 554c, and many others - that's someone else's case to argue. The lower case variety, ie booklet paper, is already listed, albeit the "standard" is for full booklet panes. Personally, I find some booklet stamps on cover are very difficult to find, as singles or pairs (eg 300b), and probably should have an "on cover" price listing. I'm guessing others - booklet pane specialists - have already made their case, and lost.
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Posted 01/16/2020   12:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Coilman, I thank you for your brief explanation about the confusion surrounding the special handling stamps. When I first decided to collect both the wet & dry print QEs a few years ago, I rapidly became confused myself. Based primarily on ink color, I located a full set of dry prints then, based primarily on the difference in size, I located a full set of wet prints. While I didn't realize it at the time, these were the 1940 wet prints. In the process though I had discovered a couple of QEs that were different that they were wet prints was obvious. But they neither matched the size nor the precise ink color of the wet print set I had acquired. I carefully saved the strange QEs, stashing them away for 3 or 4 years. Eventually I would revisit the QEs, locating Robert Rufe's articles in the U.S. Specialist archive on the USSS web site. Slowly the light dawned there were not just the two different varieties listed in Scott, there were three! And my saved stamps proved to be a used QE1b & a mint QE3b.
Added: After mulling it over, I've decided that there was more than sufficient justification to include the QEs on SBP in Scott. I honestly don't believe the same could be said of the other 8 stamps on SBP. Again, I thank you for your efforts to clarify the QE situation. Considering your original intent, this scenario almost seems to fall under the old adage that "no good deed goes unpunished".
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Edited by JLLebbert - 01/16/2020 01:45 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
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Posted 01/19/2020   3:52 pm  Show Profile Check cfrphoto's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Personally, I find some booklet stamps on cover are very difficult to find, as singles or pairs (eg 300b), and probably should have an "on cover" price listing.


Possibly the most difficult to find booklet pane singles are one from AEF booklet panes of 30, 498f and 499f issued in 1917. Ordinary booklet pane singles are imperf on one side or from the bottom left or right corner. Identifiable AEF booklet pane singles are perforated on all sides or can be imperf at the top or bottom or are top corner copies. Prices on cover range from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars.

I believe that the Scott catalog should price used booklet pane singles on and off cover if the market are substantial. While 2 cent 499f examples on cover may be seen more often than complete booklet panes, they are not that common. Examples of the 1 cent 498f on cover are even less common and solo use on postcards is rare.
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Posted 02/04/2020   8:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
In an earlier post I noted that, on a strictly percentage basis, 566a should be the scarcest of the SBP stamps. This is not true ... there was a typo in the article that reported these percentages. Of the stamps with known quantities of SBPs, E13a has the lowest percentage.
On another note, I've discovered that, except for the special handling stamps, it is possible to ID these stamps on a computer monitor by measuring aspect ratios. There is a small but measurable difference in the aspect ratios for SBP stamps vs. those on regular paper. I have been able to successfully identify every non-QE SBP variety this way. I started by searching for "special booklet paper" on the PF cert database. This yielded examples of all of the SBPs. As for the QEs, there are significant differences (ink color, gum color) other than physical dimensions that allow for fairly easy identification.
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Posted 02/04/2020   9:06 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
FYI, I searched the PSE database and found these 48 "booklet paper" certs (the term "booklet paper" appears in the 'opinion' part of the cert).

1335656--------9/20/2017--------563a
1366394--------10/28/2019--------563b
1366395--------10/28/2019--------563b
1366396--------10/28/2019--------563b
1366413--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366414--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366416--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366417--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366418--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366419--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366420--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366421--------11/12/2019--------563b
1366422--------11/12/2019--------563b
1335651--------9/20/2017--------564
1366397--------10/28/2019--------564b
1366398--------10/28/2019--------564b
1366399--------10/28/2019--------564b
1366423--------11/12/2019--------564b
1366424--------11/12/2019--------564b
1335652--------9/20/2017--------566
1335657--------9/20/2017--------566
1366400--------10/28/2019--------566a
1366401--------10/28/2019--------566a
1366412--------10/28/2019--------566a
1366425--------11/12/2019--------566a
1366426--------11/12/2019--------566a
1366427--------11/12/2019--------566a
1366428--------11/12/2019--------566a
1366434--------11/15/2019--------567a
1366429--------11/12/2019--------567b
1366430--------11/12/2019--------567b
1366431--------11/12/2019--------567b
1335653--------9/20/2017--------568
1366411--------10/28/2019--------568
1366402--------10/28/2019--------568a
1366403--------10/28/2019--------568a
1366404--------10/28/2019--------568a
1366405--------10/28/2019--------568a
1335654--------9/20/2017--------569
1366406--------10/28/2019--------569a
1366409--------10/28/2019--------C11
1366408--------10/28/2019--------C11b
1335655--------9/20/2017--------E13
1361851--------6/3/2019---------E13
1366410--------10/28/2019--------E13a
1335650--------9/20/2017--------QE1
1370771--------12/26/2019--------QE1b
1335658--------9/20/2017--------QE3

Don
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Posted 02/04/2020   9:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add JLLebbert to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Don I didn't think the PSE database was searchable. How on earth did you do it?
John L. ...
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Posted 02/04/2020   9:19 pm  Show Profile Check 51studebaker's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You are correct, PSE certs are not publicly searchable. Hopefully this will change in the near future.
Don
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United States
6 Posts
Posted 02/04/2020   11:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Coilman to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
As a significant part of the process for gaining recognition of the Special Booklet Paper varieties, the Scott Catalog editors queried each of the major expertizing firms in the US (PSE, APS, PF and PSAG) as to their ability to confirm this paper variety.

I was gratified to have the opportunity to cooperate with the expertizing firms in the submission of "patients" for their testing, and went a step further to provide each with an identification guideline "kit" including background, procedures and actual templates, such as the Scott #551 Hale stamps shown above in this topic, for direct comparison of "patients" to assist their determination of a proper identification.

As a teaching tool, I constructed an exhibit for national philatelic shows, and included certified examples of Special Booklet Paper varieties side by side with regular sheet stamp examples. I'll post some additional photos as time and interest permit.

Bob Rufe
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Edited by Coilman - 02/05/2020 2:45 pm
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